Switching to the reported hard race?!

General Discussion
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Update: T vs Z is going well. I made a small adjustment of going into BCs, off 1 starport, instead of switching it to a reactor, to make vikings from it.

It feels like there’s just too much freaking harass going on and shenanigans to deal with for anyone who isn’t, you know, good… to be able to deal with it. The matchup seems really one sided in regards to options.

I start the game with mine harass. Then there is banshee harass. Then there is a raven harassing. Then the first BC is probably teleporting into a base to kill drones. Then vikings might get in on the fun. It’s just too much man. You almost feel bad. It feels dirty.

I’ve started getting BM’d some in this matchup, as some people are just getting obliterated and I can empathize.

The only thing that seems strong are swarm hosts and lurkers. Everything else seems like you’re supposed to beat, every time.

I’m already playing this matchup at a masters level on EU. I’m beating 4500+ players in T vs T and T vs Z. Some with quite a margin, too.

T vs T: I seem to get compliments every other game in this matchup. More times than not, I guess I play solidly and win. The matchup has seemed pretty straight forward, so far. Every now and then, I make my starport a couple seconds late or am a little late on starting the raven, and I’ve lost a game here and there due to a lack of energy or w/e.

My only real surprise has been a lack of people proxying me. I figured proxying in T vs T was like an every other game ordeal, if not more frequently. It seems to be a lot lower of a percentage than I anticipated. I wasn’t expecting to be surprised by anyone proxying.

Masters level T vs T.

T vs P: So, I must confess this matchup has definitely been my weakest these first few days. I have wins against 4400 players, so it’s not entirely bronze league, but I do face more all-ins and, naturally, regardless of matchup, all-ins do take some time to figure out.

It only took a day or so to figure out solid winning strats/themes/way to play the other matchups. But, with T vs P, it’s been a little hard to decipher whether my strategy is adequate or not because my micro was such a question mark; aka, regardless of strategy, can anyone expect to win games with this micro?

So, I’ve had to try a few different strategies, whether not being able to ascertain whether “I had it right or not to begin with.”

I’m trying to go back to how I originally envisioned playing. Massing cyclones and simply not microing like the biggest clown ever.

My last game played, I kinda got behind via making tanks and making some micro blunders. The opponent got to carrier, stalker, disruptor. So, I decided to remind myself who I am… and flip on the cyclone switch and let the train commence.

I think I’m realizing how strong cyclone, mine, viking can be/is. I think mines are probably too good to not incorporate, at some point, especially when it synergizes with everything and there is no way to keep observers alive vs mass cyclones. Insult to injury to add vikings.

Replay: h ttps://drop.sc/replay/19640822

This proxy void ray business. I was trying to make my first rax where they would inevitably make the shield batteries, if not the starport itself. I’m sure that has to be the hard counter to that build, yet I still managed to botch it. Making the wrong units, not making a bunker, etc.

I feel like proxying a reaper close to their base is just too god not to, but… it really has made defending vs all-ins a lot harder. I have to figure out whether it’s a doable thing and what kinda adjustments I can make.

In conclusion, I feel like I’ve been playing T vs Z and T vs T for months, years, already… even if just a few days and I haven’t even used a nuke before and etc, etc. It does just come down to T vs P, it seems.

If I can get my cyclone business working and keep working on my micro, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibilities that I end up with, say, a higher MMR than Ruff and the likes within the first month. That would be kinda nice. It would be nice to highlight just how bad some of these builds are and how ridiculous it is to carry on about how Terran is holding everyone back… There has to be some accountable in this game. I can’t afford to be a noob given zero accountability in this game. Points have to be made…

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yep, so you admit TvP is by FAR the hardest match up in the game . Do you also feel like its hopeless to play when protoss gets past the 10th minute? Can you feel how incredibly weak terran is in the late game? Now can we talk about nerfs?

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Ruff never dropped below 4.6k off racing with Protoss. Yikes.

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You build queens into a spire, it’s braindead to beat.

It’s not a solid build, but it’s strong. It’s good to mix in.

I mean, my Toss MMR is currently 200 away from my Terran despite playing only ~150 games of Toss in LotV.

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I’ve played Ruff’s Toss at least three times. At least two of the times he forgot to even research warp gate. The other time, worst cannon rush ever. He actually might be the least talented player in all of SC 2.

I just looked. He has played 28k games with Terran, in LotV, alone. 14k in HotS. 10k in WoL. He’s barely 4800 MMR now. He does the worst strategies in the entire world, and then he whines about everything but his builds/skills lacking. It’s so obtuse, and this is totally the norm. Everyone is such a man child. The degree of it is kinda wild.

The truth is, most Terrans such as Ruff and the others… they’re the worst Toss players ever. Honest to god, I’ve never played a worse “Toss player.” The only reason they have any MMR is cause they void ray all-in every Terran.

I looked at his APM not too long ago, in match history, and I was blown away. He’s actually 300 APM. As a mech player? It’s just baffling. Like what is he doing with the APM? He doesn’t do any multipronged things. He’s not macroing well. It’s just all-around odd to me. It doesn’t add up.

It sounds absurd to think I could get the same MMR as a guy who has played 28k+ games with Terran within a month, who is 100% sure it’s the difficulty of Terran/imbalance that is making him lose any games…

We’ll see, though. Personally, what I think… is these guys were really, really low level players in BW, because that’s their skill level/strategic depth level… but SC 2 is a lot easier… so now they get put into a league where they think they’re good, thus… “since I’m so good, only the game is holding me back.” It’s like… what was holding you back in BW?

As is, I’m pretty confused. Ironically, T vs Z in SC 2 is reminding me of T vs P in BW… IF you were to play against the worst player of all time. It’s like the easiest version of T vs P one could ever play. It’s actually comical how easy it is compared to anything in BW. It’s relaxing to finally be able to play mech in an environment that seems fool proof. Your relaxation is the other guy’s struggle.

T vs T… given everyone complains about how impossible it is to play Terran… guess it figures you should win the games if you can play Terran at all?

T vs P… last game I opened mines, expansion, into cyclones. Fast third CC. I’ma keep at that. Won pretty easily. The cyclones are just nuts man. They’re out of this world. I’m loving it. I’m having fun making the clones. The way they can make armies disintegrate is something I’ve never seen before, from a unit without splash… A sight to behold. I messed around with the unit tester a few hours ago. The cyclones can basically beat carriers at even supplies, too. Amazing unit.

Oh yeah, I got the chance to play some 5k players and I had really close games with them, in T vs P, my worst matchup. So… the initial impression would be… Terran is a lot better of a race… there’s more ways to “skin the cat,” thus… takes less time to “play winning ways” without needing to copy anything/anyone.

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Ur are doing d same. They proxy void ray to prove how much u can win w it. U play mech to prove u know Terran but plz use libs,ghost,bio,raven put them in controls and see who press the triiger faster against protoss storms, cowboy

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For example, the guy I mentioned, uses mech himself. He thinks it’s the hardest thing in the world. Everything Terran is the hardest thing. We’re really splitting hairs when talking about Terran. It’s all impossible. I’ve heard it every day. Mech, itself, is more important than the entire Toss race has ever been. I’m using all the mech units possible vs Zerg, atm. All with their own little special hotkey. Nothing I haven’t already done.

I’m playing macro games and I’m already beating the players/MMR “I’m not supposed to.” Who knows, I may have even come up with a build vs Zerg that might even be as good if not better than w/e the meta is now, my second day.

I’m winning the games and having the fun.

I feel like Terran is far more flexible/adaptable. With Toss, you need things to unfold a certain way. You don’t want to be playing weird games. With Terran, going back to BW, it really don’t matter what happens. It’s all fine. All roads are equally fine, more or less.

I’m realizing how dumbed down SC 2 is, and especially Terran. In BW, you always had to scan. Constantly. You always needed to know what your opponent was making/teching to and what not. So far, it seems like it doesn’t really matter in SC 2. You can just make units that are good vs everything. Catch all units. You can really get away with being a bum of bums.

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It must have been hard to type GG to Jason. Ruff is a motivation/boredom problem. I’ve said it before I guess you want me to say it again. Once blizzard buffed thors, bcs and siege tanks playing terran has been remarkably easier. The thing is those buffs are almost exclusive to TvZ and even then some of us still prefer playing with our “catch all” units.

Yeah, good luck playing your monobattles.

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You know, I do have Jason to thank for helping me to understand how to play vs disruptor players. It takes playing someone that has no idea what they’re doing to really hammer the point home. It’s like people don’t understand the value in playing against, say, a diamond player. If you’re in GM and you lose to someone way below you, it makes it crystal clear that you’re simply playing as wrong as possible versus said strat/unit.

You know change is in order. Losing vs Jason, especially his Toss, is a rarity. But, let’s explain why. 1) It’s always on Romanticide because it’s the hardest map to do an early timing attack on. 2) It’s the hardest map to attack on in general. Furthermore, the map is 100% designed for siege tanks to dominate; disruptors are basically sieged tanks. So, this only heightens the need to have the proper response.

As soon as you see a lot of stalkers, you simply have to make disruptors, turtle, and make carriers. There’s nothing else you can do. It’s incredibly lame. Do anything else, and you will lose to anyone in the world who simply went stalker disruptors, and especially on that map. It all adds up.

People with 300 APM don’t have motivation problems. They’re try hards to the max. They whine cause they tried as hard as possible and it didn’t pan out, and they refuse to accept any responsibility. It’s a character/personality thing, like Avilo.

Regardless, it feels like T vs Z mech is supposed to always win. Even vipers feel horrible vs it. Last period, T vs Z was at 57%, which would make it the most broken matchup, in my favor, that I’ve ever had the privilege to play. Felt that way…

Have you heard of Goomba? Who has, right? I watched his stream for a min, and he was talking about how he’s beat parting at least 3 times with cyclones. I’m sure it helps when dude always knows where your units are… but regardless… I think that says enough about the viability of cyclones.

I feel like if you were to tell alpha star to only make cyclones vs Toss and you raised its APM restrictions, then… it would dominate every Toss in the world. I don’t know how a person can look at the cyclone’s attributes and not think “if this unit were microed perfectly, it would dominate everything.” You know, like, say, only pulling back the cyclones that have lock on engaged. Never eating a disruptor shot. Spreading them out vs colossi, etc, etc.

It just feels like using a ball of unlimited potential. If there were one unit that could mono battle Protoss, it was the infestor, but after nerf… it has to be the cyclone, if any unit.

I’ve played against Nathanias before where he went mass mine, and I want to say maybe started with cyclones. I feel like I’ve faced similar things, and… it’s not any fun to play against. If good players… were to actually use things like this… I don’t see why it wouldn’t become meta.

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Do I have to point to the obvious?

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Given someone had to point to you that two isn’t one and etc, etc… I’d like to see you be able to point to the obvious for once, correctly. And, no… massing tanks isn’t massing cyclones.

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You completely missed my point when I posted that video didn’t you. That’s how the meta develops, you take the most vanilla version (a proxy gateway) and then you watch how the build changes over time to players adapting.

How many games has the proxy gateway been scouted and it then transitions to a regular game instead of watching the 1 example when it straight up wins the game? The same thing just happened to proxy void ray builds. Now protoss players know that terrans are increasingly better at defending, so Protoss players don’t commit to ending the game right there.

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You didn’t have a point. You were just being an obnoxious troll, whose purpose in life is to “1 up playa,” and then act like you didn’t prove how much of an idiot you are, but no “it’s me…”

Every proxy gate for Toss was proxy 2 gate. You literally showed me the only version of the god d build, basically, and was like “hey Playa look who was doing it before you.” You know, it was only a couple weeks ago or w/e that I heard demuslim praising maxpax for “that build” and P vs P. I didn’t even mention it, because you already looked stupid enough. Tried to do you a favor. Stupid of me, though, obviously.

I didn’t naturally evolve what already existed, in this instance. I literally came up with the build to solve losing to proxies. I experimented with 1 gate proxy for around a year until I had it optimized to the point where it could win 80% of games. I tried all the variants. I tried all numbers of units before expanding. Nothing new under the sun cause I did it all, before others even bothered to try anything.

Even 5 years later… maxpax wasn’t apart of some natural evolution. You can tell this by looking at any old replay of his in other matchups. They’re simply my builds, too.

I wrote about what is actually “natural evolution” in my book. When I first started out in BW, everyone went 2 rax, fast expansion. Even as the worst player in BW, I was able to watch replays and note they never made any marines from the second rax before expanding, thus… it would be better to go 1 rax expand. Thus, I did that, even as the worst player ever.

Not long after… everyone started to do 1 rax fast expansion, and 2 rax expansion became extinct from that point on. It’s not like anyone copied me, in that instance. It was just a collective “brain turned on moment” for everyone.

When people are always looking for reasons to disparage you and minimize everything you do… and then they’re trying to praise everyone else and make excuses for why they’re only 4.8k or w/e… the problem isn’t me. It’s time to look in the mirror.

I don’t know who you’re fooling, but obviously it isn’t me. You’ve fooled yourself, maybe. Grats on playing yourself, I guess.

You guys don’t innovate anything. You guys don’t create anything. All you guys do is create headaches and grief for people who aren’t scum bags. The main hobby and passion project of the majority. Color me annoyed. At least everyone can say they’re good at something.

I’m actually getting to the point where I’m considering not talking to anyone, due to brain damage of others. I’m not trying to be callous, arrogant or w/e. It’s just “there’s nothing that can be said/done.”

I’ve been spending my time looking into what is going on and why we’re literally becoming the movie Idiocracy, if not worse. It’s troubling.

I read a study yesterday that said, on average, those who got covid and went on a ventilator lost an average of 7 IQ. Then, they also say that RNA that escapes the injection site (75%) becomes prions, which end up leading to mad cow like disease, aka… brain damage. Then there’s fluoride in all of our water. Similar result…

I can’t do this every day. In fact, I don’t want to do it any days. I can’t explain what is beyond people’s ability to understand and not become the dumbest person involved. At some point I have to be able to “get” that “you” can’t get it or else… I’m just as bad if not worse in that regard.

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The single biggest nerf to this build is going from wol to hots you couldn’t power buildings from the low ground. Then we have non tech lab reapers and simply walling off. Your build is a free donation of a zealot/pylon/gateway with no chance of a counter attack because the MSC protected you. Got to love this 80% wr stat, guessing it didn’t go well in tournament play…

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zombiegrub just said maxpax is the most exciting. are you jealous

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There is no nerf to a build that didn’t exist in WoL, first and foremost. Secondly, nearly every map was a 4 player map. It’s a build designed for 2 player maps. Even if you won 100% of games on every 2 player map in WoL, I guess you could take solace in winning your daybreak games. Talking about WoL couldn’t be more pointless.

You got it all figured out. You know how easy everything is. You know everything is just natural evolution. Use your head sometime to come up with some easy meta strats.

I do kinda like the idea of why give anyone credit for any invention, when given a long enough timeline, someone else would have done the same thing, To me, that idea is kinda more revolutionary than coming up with any tangible thing.

And when you really think about it, who even cares if someone invents, say, a computer… how many planets are there? Surely it’s already been done a million times already. This is probably my greatest contribution yet. Living in a place that is so discriminatory that they have to go to the 100000th level to find reasons to criticize.

I have a dream… that you guys will eventually reach the the highest level, to justify the censorship of blatant truths, and realize you’re all a bunch of insignificant d-bags… and then no one ever says anything, cause it’s clear no one cares. Best dream.

I didn’t play in many tournaments, in part to scamming d-bags like cham. What this game is about. Fitting that there is a walkout today. Every time you post now, it’s like your giving out a resume to blizzard. “Hey guys… I heard you’re looking for more discrimination.”

That said… I did win a series in the winners final vs a decent GM, while using this build every single game… and a 3 player map was one of the maps I had to play.

h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTBciSbIx-Q&t=1006s

You know what build does great in tournaments that you can use every game and are kinda stupid if you don’t? Oh yeah, the P vs P build I do… thus the one Max does. When you got “20 hits,” and a person wants to nitpick on one of them… it’s like thanks for even reminding me to care about that one… forgot about it… It’s kinda ridiculous.

The standard for worshiping others is breathing. Mine is impossible, not that one should worship anyone.

On that note:

Random people become streamers and become “non random people.” Still random in my book. After a couple days with Terran, my MMR is probably higher than hers right? She knows a lot about nothing, but her job is to talk, so it probably shows. I’d rather know something than nothing, so not jealous.

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holy hell what are you even on. that’s amazing.

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5/8 wol maps of the last pool were 2 player. Almost half of the longest running maps were 2 player. Then they disabled close spawns on maps like metalopolis. You can start with the truth if you want to keep going down this road. Then we have maps like steppes of war with the fastest ramp to ramp distance the game has ever had.

Woah, you beat Zan(who?) once out of 4 times you two have played? Definitely going to be the talk of the town. I am referencing that series too, it’s filled with Zan blind countering, followed by excessive greed followed by getting saved by the MSC. https://youtu.be/mTBciSbIx-Q?t=2728

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I didn’t click link. Remind me again why you’re being such a dumb d-bag? I’m just curious.

What am I supposed to feel bad about again? I missed the memo or it was written by a 2 year old, so I had a hard time grasping it.

I was top 10 GM. Routinely top 16. Not using a barcode. Everyone knew what I was going to do. Yet… highest win rate. Am I supposed to be the one getting clowned on/owned? Why not, right? It just seems like it should be kinda self evident… that it was solid enough…

I’m a ladder player, creating ladder builds. Sorry for not winning GSL, unlike your 4.8k MMR heroes…

Also, with not being a tournament player… I didn’t spend any time coming up with different follows up. Once you start qualifying for things or caring about winning tournaments, then those are things you do… if you care enough.

I don’t have anything to feel bad about, besides talking to people whose purpose for the day is “finding ways to own me in fantasy land.”

I’ve literally beaten everyone on ladder. I’m sorry I didn’t record every game or didn’t win WCS. I feel so much shame. If only I could be half the man that Thrasher is… so… I could have beaten… the aliens. The literal aliens from the planet “only wins vs these guys matter bro.” Even if I did that… who is to say I wasn’t cheating.

You’re like the kid who asks why about everything. Just keep asking why. It’s the unbeatable strat. I’ll never be able to win cause there will always be another why. Eternally locked into answering stupid s. It’s a real classic.

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I wanted to see what would happen going from agreeableness to disagreeing with Playa. Given the amount of times this topic has been discussed. Didn’t think you would think I’ve become a playa hater.

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