[Suggestion] Siege unit HP

General Discussion
1

Hi everyone.

One thing that’s struck me with StarCraft II is that a lot of the siege units have very high HP and so are difficult to destroy if you flank them or otherwise catch them out of position, and it can get nothing short of frustrating to deal with, especially if you’re not Master or above. I would like to propose changing the HP of these units slightly.

Despite their strength, I think Siege Tanks are okay because they are immobile and can be killed with drop play, air units (if they aren’t supported) and things ilke Ravager bile shots. That aside:

  • Lurker:
    • HP reduced from 200 to 170.

At 170 HP, it allows them to die to 3 Ravager Bile shots and 2 Liberator shots at +3 weapons. If you’re able to get close enough undetected, a Ghost can also use Steady Targetting on them and kill it in one. However, Steady Targetting has the same range as a Lurker with Seismic Spines (and the Ghost fails to snipe if they are attacked in the process), so it’s not a guaranteed win. It doesn’t help Protoss all that much, although it leaves them closer to death after 3 hits from an Immortal, meaning they can be finished off with Zealots.

  • Tempest:
    • HP reduced from 200 to 100.
    • Shields increased from 100 to 200.

I have a separate suggestion in regards to their damage and synergy with High Templars, but that’s another topic. My logic with swapping the shields and HP is that most of the Tempest is the huge electrical ball of energy they generate in their curved bow, which is thin and looks a little flimsy, while the extreme energies produced could easily go into their shield generators too. Lore aside, it means their 2 base armour is only effective for the last 100 HP and so can be more quickly taken down by marines, hydralisks and stalkers, while Ghosts can soften them up if they cast EMP twice rather than just once. On the flip side, it improves their sniping ability against Battlecruisers slightly. If a Battlecruiser manages to get off a Yamato, it will fall to 60 HP, but upon recharging its shields to 200 (if it was defending over a Shield Battery, say), it will be able to tank another Yamato blast (and fall to 20 HP) - at 200 HP and 100 shields, a second Yamato hit will kill it for definite. There may still be some problems with proxy Tempests over Shield Batteries, although the recent balance changes may help with this, especially as Ghosts are already a good support unit in dealing with them (fire EMP at the Shield Batteries).

  • Widow Mine:
    • HP reduced from 90 to 75.

Okay, it’s more of a trap unit than a siege unit, but some similar principles apply. This allows them to be killed faster if a defending player notices a fast mine drop, although it still takes effort. Later in the game when they can be used as cloaked minefields, it permits Psionic Storm to be used as a minesweeper if keeping them under detection proves difficult, although the owner of the mines can still use micro to move them away before they get destroyed.

There’s probably some good counter-arguments to this, so I’ll be interested in hearing the debate.

2

Lol lets made tempest even more not usable because you not think how protoss gonna deal witch sky terran mass bc

3

The aspect of drops from Widow Mine is understandable. But otherwise not much is changed or? if you have Detector you can kill them, if not the Hp is uninteresting. And it doesn’t change with the actual problem you are talking about.

Tempest are not a siege unit so I don’t understand why they are listed. simple bonus?

Lurker? You say 170 Hp → that ghost can one shot lurker. Did you see the interaction of lurker vs ghost?
8+ Lurker burrow → scan / Raven → Steady targeting.
Theory says: Lurker aa stop Steady Targeting. True. but reality will forget the unit size. 3 ghosts next to each other one is attacked the other 2 can Steady Targeting the lurker. the other lurkers are thanks to units size out of range to stop the other ghost…
Your suggestion is to make it even easier for the Ghost to kill the Lurker. Because Ghost don’t already counter with 2 sup completely late game zerg…

What is forgotten? Tank… why is fine. In your opinion.
Lib? Harass and Siege unit? not a word from you, although it is also a siege unit.

Conclusion: Terran detected. A pseudo thread on the topic of siege unit, which in essence is only to nerf things you do not like or with which you have problems.

4 Likes
4

Imagine posting something as ridiculous as this (never mind all the other terrible suggestions). Based on your forum posting history, I can’t believe you’ve said the smartest things, yet also say the dumbest things ever.

1 Like
5

I figured the Liberator was okay because it can be 3-shot with Ravager biles and the range upgrade and damage have been nerfed already. For Siege Tanks, their immobility and minimum range is the best way to circumvent them, but if I had to suggest retuning them a bit, then I’d remove their smart targetting to bait overkilling.

The Widow Mine HP nerf is so storm can be a minesweeper mostly.

What is the Tempest’s role? Isn’t the Carrier meant to be the assault unit?

I guess the people have spoken. I’m dumb and stupid and should just go die in a hole since I am obviously senile and have no use in the world.

6

Carrier always be assault unit till time where whiner think it op

7

Significantly more dangerous facing disruptors too. I don’t think this is the way to go about nerfing the lurker personally, but I do agree that they’re overtuned. I’ve said it before that they just need their mobility slashed. I suggest removing the Adaptive tallons upgrade.

Still, your sugfestion does have some merit.

I would actually be open to this. This is actually a pretty good suggestion, though I can see concern in EMP invalidating shields, I think this is better than what we have currently because of their general size makes EMPing harder to hit multiple targets. Of course, stacked air units is another thing.

Mmm… I’m not sure how I feel about this personally. Its already fairly supply heavy though it fires in burst, it is only firing once every 30 seconds or so. I’d be willing to give it a fair go though, see how it feels. But with all the nerfs making it easier to tell what its targeting, whether you need an obs to deal with it, units that outrange it etc… I’m not sure its really necessary, especially since it feels like mine drops are often the only thing that slows a zerg or toss down. Obviously there is more to it, but that’s my take.

The change literally makes Tempests more viable vs BCs, not less.

Yes, they’re definitely a siege unit. Long range attacks (and a bonus to buildings) is absolutely a siege unit. It doesnt have splash but thats irrelevant, because its the range that makes it one.

Ghosts are, at best, a soft counter vs Zerg late-game.

Tanks dont need adjusting. They already have:

  • slow production
  • less HP than other siege units
  • minimum firing range in siege mode
  • low mobility
  • require spotter units to make use of their full range. Without spotters, their maximum attack range in siege mode is less than both lurkers and tempests.

You can make an argument for the lib to be a siege unit, but it doesn’t attack buildings and has a small firing zone that kinda negates that particular thought as well.

It’s more of a zone denial unit, rather than a Siege unit, though they often have overlapping roles, they are not the same thing.

Rude much?

Theoretically its both a siege and anti-massive air unit, but its roll has kinda changed repeatedly. I do think its still more of a siege unit though.

Dont be silly, your suggestions have merit, and are reasonably well thought out. I may not agree with all of them, but I understand the logic and thinking behind them. Its not your fault people refuse to think critically and respond in a manner that is not simply being obtuse and vitriolic.

8

I hit the right amount of rudeness. Unfortunately, some people like you are resilient to it

9

The right amount of rudeness is zero. At least try to be cordial with people. Being rude doesn’t help with anything, and certainly doesn’t help people understand what they did or said that was incorrect in your opinion.

I don’t know what’s got you so twisted up, but neither Crane nor I have done anything to warrant such an attitude. Certainly, I haven’t (intentionally, anyway) been rude to you so far as I can remember, so why the vitriol?

10

that’s why I said, “Terran detected.”
unit with long Tec path Lair - Hydra Den - Lurker Den - Hive -2x upgrades. should have 170 Hp for you. “Steady Targeting” can one shot is “fine” for you.
But lib relatively short Tec path. multiple rolls Push/ def/ harass. 180 Hp.

sry, misunderstanding on my side. Thought you were also referring to siege in the sense of “siege mode”.

on the topic of tank, you can also say why tank doesn’t need an upgrade. Example: Sc1 you have to upgrade there “Siege Mode”. or standard Siege Mode 8-10 range an upgrade gives the 13 range. Barrack-Factory-tec leb.
But then complain about lurkers who need a lot of tec. What are the alternatives? Ultra … forced to attack, but has problem with itself. BL… slow clunky.

11

Not that it means anything, but I main Protoss.