Still waiting to hear the counter to mass BC from Toss

And the end result was that Battlecruisers and Thors were both completely useless in TvP.

Battlecruisers and Thors never should have had energy in the first place. They are not true casters and they don’t have any way to drain energy to prevent damage from Feedback. This is something all other casters and energy units can do: Bio can stim to drain Medivac energy, Banshees and Wraiths can stealth to keep their energy low, and all other casters have at least one spell that they can “waste” without targeting the enemy to reduce their energy pool.

Thors in particular should never have had 250mm Strike Cannons. That ability does not belong in an RTS, and it is not possible to balance that ability in any way that would make it usable. Either 250mm Strike Cannons stunned and destroyed an expensive supply unit with no retaliation (making it outright overpowered), or it was not worth stopping the auto-attack or wasting the energy (in which case there was no point having it). The ability was never balanced, Blizzard just increased the cost to a ludicrously high value to prevent players from ever using it until they removed it.

For both Thors and Battlecruisers, that “nerf to Protoss” was needed; just like how hardened shields had to be replaced in order for Factory units to be usable.

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I think dealing with BCs as Protoss is more about how the game got there than listing a unit to counter the BCs. Did they score mejor economic damage while going BCs? Did they go for Bio BC? DId they go mech?

What tech did you get?

Protoss don’t have issues killing BCs. What they have issues with is the accompanying army because BCs force extreme reactions that the Terran can capitalize on.

If it’s bio BC then you need some sentries and HT along with Chargelots and Stalkers that you accept are going to die in exchange for flanking and sniping BCs.

If it’s mech then you need to get Immortals, Chargelots and again, Stalkers.

I wouldn’t advise going Tempest because Tempests are expensive, not easily replaceable and have next to no use outside of killing BCs. Nevermind scan+yamato making them not ideal for countering…

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This whole complaint seems absurd to me. Once Protoss gets their death ball going they are almost unbeatable.

Every single game I play is the same struggle - try to kill Protoss in the midgame or auto-lose in the late game.

How Protoss even can lose in the late game is beyond me. Disruptors counters everything on the ground. Tempest is just 175 gas compared to BCs 300 gas. HT make Viking complete joke. I never have had a game where I managed to get enough BCs to compete with the Protoss death ball. Even if you telport on top of the Tempest you lose all your BCs while Protoss can easily warp in 40+ supply and wipe out any army you have left.

TvP is all about trying to kill enough workers and try to kill the Protoss before they reach their auto-win late game. I wish I had opponent polite enough to let me turtle to 20 BCs. It just does not happen in a real game.

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My point remains removing the energy cost was an indirect nerf to Protoss. It’s coming at a time Protoss are struggling vs BC in ultra late game. And feedback was nerfed already by 50% so it was a double whammy. Thors may no longer need to have energy and I agree 250mm cannons were useless. But I also don’t think feedback made thors useless in pvt at all. It was a good way to get focused damage on a Thor. Infestors for example get fungal For small units and neural for large units like the Thor but Templar just have storm for thors now and no ability to feedback (once again showing how great infestors are) anyway this is really veering off topic, thors are a peripheral issue.

Feedback should affect BCs. They have even more abilities now than before but no energy? Yamato not requiring energy is unnecessary. It’s on such a short cool down compared to its previous energy cost and newly made BCs don’t have to wait to use it. It’s just bad design. Feedback gave Protoss an option to stop Yamato. They don’t after all have a way to stop BCs like fungal or interference matrix.

You said BCs are not a caster then unironically mentioned banshees. Are banshees a caster? No. But they have energy and you seem to have no problem with that. Your argument is that BCs have no way to burn that energy. Sure they do. Yamato. If they don’t have enough energy to use Yamato, then by that’s giving Protoss a proper window to drain the energy before they can Yamato. saying they don’t have a way to burn energy just isn’t a good argument. Feedback’s counterplay is emp or killing the Templar, not burning energy. Feedback IS the counterplay.

You make no argument why feedback nerf and energy removal was needed. Thors were not useless vs P due to feedback nor were BCs. If you think either unit was useless in that era, it certainly wasn’t because of feedback.

And while were on the subject, if BCs shouldn’t have energy why shouldn’t all casters just have abilities on cool down and no energy? Sentries could have charges of forcefield on a 20 second cool down with 4 maximum charges and no cool down to cast multiple charges. Everything else could just have a cool down like psi storm. Infested Terran. Fungal. Parasitic bomb. Why not? We’re already doing it with a few units in LOTV. Why do need to worry about managing my Templar energy when I can have it on cool down? On and by the way, notice how Yamato is available out the gate but Templar need to wait? That needs to be changed one way or the other. Yamato is in no way less powerful than storm.

Lastly, and most importantly, BCs no longer need to manage their energy. You should know how many BCs have Yamato before going into a fight if you want to do well. Now it doesn’t matter- they all do! The funny thing is you could have said BCs had only one ability so there was no compelling choice in energy use. Now they have two. And as predictable they spam it at will with no thought as to making a choice between the two. Energy cost allows a choice to be made, cool down does not. (at least, not in its current form)

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Tempests are only 250/175/5

Tempest outside of killing Massive air have 10 damage ATG range with high alpha damage. Also the 14 range ATA is something nothing can fight back against.

And due to their slow attack speed and slow projectile speed, they become nigh useless after. That’s the problem. AFter a Tempest has cleared out big, fat air targets…it loses almost all utility and for the price/supply cost…that’s bad. Very bad. Depending on the composition, you’d be better off going Stalkers with blink and upgrades.

Once again proving how clueless about the game you are. Good luck breaking lategame lurker or ghost liberator positions with stalkers

We’re talking about BCs…not Zerg, not Liberators. BCs use up a TON of gas so if there are Libs, there will be a very small number of them.

Please don’t tag me again, I don’t like you, I think you’re crazy.

You said it loses all utility after clearing out big fat air units which is blatantly wrong. Not surprising coming from you though lol

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I said Tempests did…dude, you’re not smart enough to converse with me. Stick to 6th graders.

I know you said tempests. Tempests have more utility than killing massive air units. They are used to break positions…lurker, libs etc

Of course a cocky plat league player wouldn’t know that though lol

So reduce the supply cost to 4 again or make the attack speed for both weapons the same attack speed that a sieged tank has.

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I’d rather just change the attack animation/type to instant and have it be a lightning bolt. Eliminates overkill and that alone could be enough to make the Tempest not suck.

So make it hit scan, like the Thors HIP mode?

Basically. Not sure it would fix all the problems but it’s a start…one that probably wouldn’t break the game?

It was a completely justified “nerf”. Protoss had no trouble dealing with Battlecruisers or Thors at all without Feedback.

Protoss arguably has some trouble against Battlecruisers now because of issues with the Tempest and the Void Ray (which surprisingly does beat Battlecruisers with Yamato now, if you start with equal supply), but it is not enough to justify such a heavy nerf to the Battlecruiser.

Yes, and that nerf took place at a time where it had no effect on Battlecruisers. Feedback was too strong of an ability for the High Templar anyway.

High Templar are cheaper than every other support caster except the Sentry (Protoss unit) and the Queen, yet it could easily one-shot up to 4 enemy casters that were always more expensive.
Feedback was balanced for the Dark Archon, which costs more than twice as much as a High Templar and was in a dead tie with the Arbiter for the most expensive caster in the game.

It is an objective fact that Thors were not usable in WOL TvP because of feedback. If you knew anything about WOL you would not be stupid enough to suggest putting an energy bar on Thors.

Why don’t you suggest adding useless energy bars to Tempests, Carriers, Colossus, and Immortals while you’re at it? I’m sure you won’t be happy with the results.

Yes, and Infestors are a problematic unit that can counter just about every other unit in the game by themselves. All-around casters like the Infestor need to be reworked or nerfed, not emulated. The Raven used to be like that, and the game has been much better ever since it was reworked.

High Templar already deal a significant amount of damage to most units in the game with Storm. They are practically always useful for that damage alone, even when the enemy army has a lot of relatively durable units.

You are clearly too stupid to understand the point that I made.

All units that have energy also have a way to drain energy so that they do not take much damage from Feedback. Battlecruisers and Thors did not.

Banshees drain energy as long as they are cloaked, so they can easily keep their energy count low.
Medivacs (stim Bio units), Queens, Phoenixes, and all casters are also capable of this. A unit that doesn’t have an ability which can waste low amounts of energy has no business with an energy pool.

Battlecruisers were reworked without energy because the energy bar caused nothing but problems.

First of all, it made Battlecruisers far too easy to shut down with Feedback when they already have a number of counters and obstacles in TvP, and Battlecruiser transitions are already very risky and difficult to pull off. As mentioned previously, Battlecruisers also do not have a mechanic to drain energy like all other energy units do.

Second, it caused problems with Yamato Cannons. The time that it takes to gather 125 energy for Yamato is far too long for the ability to be practical. At the same time, anything cheaper than 125 energy could be spammed in combat unless Blizzard added a cooldown. The cooldown itself negates the need for an energy cost, and it is much easier to precisely balance.

  1. Because all casters have multiple abilities that they can use in combat, and many of those abilities are meant to be spammed. It makes more sense for those casters to draw from an energy pool than to manage 2-3 separate sets of cooldowns or charges.

  2. So that casters can have counters that remove energy like Feedback and EMP. Otherwise, we would have 3 different versions of Interference Matrix.

  3. Ghosts and Banshees in particular need an energy pool anyway to manage the time that they can spend cloaked. This gives their cloaking the most flexibility, and it cannot really be replaced by anything except permanent cloaking.

Khadarin Amulet was already tried, and Blizzard removed it because warp-in Storms were absolutely broken. Protoss players could easily fly a Warp Prism into the any base without risking anything else until the moment they decided it was safe to warp. Then they just destroy the mineral line and retreat.

Battlecruisers also have a 64 second build time and have to travel or Tactical Jump into combat. In contrast, High Templar only take 5 seconds to build and they can be warped anywhere on the map. The time that HT take to gather energy for Storm would otherwise be part of their build time, where no other caster would even be out yet.

Storm is also a much stronger spell than Yamato Cannons. Yamato Cannons is only useful against a few relatively durable or expensive units, and it can never kill more than the Battlecruiser’s own cost or supply (unlike both Storm and Feedback). Battlecruisers can also only use one Yamato Cannon each in any particular fight.
Storm deletes most units and workers in droves and still deals a substantial amount of damage to more durable units over its duration.

I would actually give tempests a faster attack speed than a sieged tank. About 1.88 to 2 seconds in LOTV faster units.

Considering the Tempest’s range I think it should at least show a beam or some other artwork that can be used to figure out where the Tempest is. The unit can attack from outside of the opponent’s vision range, and it does not have to immobilize itself the way that a Tank does before firing.

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Don’t think it would since Thors make up for the lack of PDD by a long shot(pun intended).

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thx for telling more things that annoy toss. i will try this next

My only concern is that this could be a buff to proxy Tempest…but honestly…proxy Tempest kinda sucks. Even with SBs.

That’s true. I concede. Though i stand by my point that stalkers are not the best units for this situation (mass BC’s that is, if its less than ~7 then stalkers are pretty good still).