We are happy to push 5.0.13 to PTR which features a variety of Map Pool Updates and Balance.
5 Likes
Edit: Someone mentioned that they had actually written some justifications out, but they werenāt included in the link. Found the link to said explanations behind the PTR Patch Notes here: https://rentry.co/5013balancetest
Original Post
So a few things I want to say first:
- Absolutely hyped to see the 9 map rotation continue for 1v1, even if there are some that stay and some that get rotated out, thatās totally fine. I recall the new maps from the TLMC and if I recall correctly the new maps were some pretty decent ones. Interestingly though, none of them were the selected winners from the TLMC, just finalists - which bothers me a little bit.
- Dynasty had someā¦ Questionable and confusing map design choices that didnāt make any sense but was mostly an okay map.
https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/TLMC/19/TLMC19__Dynasty.jpg
- Amphion is a goldenwall clone, just vertical - not to sure how I feel about this map, itās an okay map but just kinda meh?
https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/TLMC/19/TLMC19__Amphion.jpg
- Crimson Court - was just kind of a standard map, and wasnāt all that interesting IMO for a freestyle map. Itās going to be a Mech-Loverās haven though, and I frankly hate it because it, much like a certain past map that was suggested and subsequently removed, it has the same issue of only having one or two viable attack paths. Itās not quite as egregious since you can break rocks and donāt then have to mine mineral walls out, but itās still not great since rocks traditionally have a ton of HP. Itās also going to be Tank Heaven because there are a number of really good tank spots that are just impossible to attack into because of those same walls.
https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/TLMC/19/TLMC19__Crimson_Court_v1.jpg
- Ghost River - I finally found it and it was in the finals, though it wasnāt a winner. My mistake. Definitely an interesting map. The inclusion of a healing shrine is really huge considering that they (currently) heal 14 health a second in a fairly sizable radius, though I believe this map includes air blockers around the shrine so it wonāt heal air units. I could be mistaken though and would have to check that. For a rush map, the base layout is interesting and there are a few different attack paths. However, the third base is a literal eternity away from the natural, and defending your third basically guarantees a defended natural to some extent. Itās definitely a map Iām curious to see play out.
https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/TLMC/19/TLMC19__Ghost_River.jpg
- Post-Youth LE is one I donāt recognise from this or any other TLMC, though I do believe it was in TLMC19, it didnāt make the finals. However I am very curious to see how it plays out - notably the map doesnāt actually have a proper āNaturalā base, instead giving you an āin baseā natural with hybrid gold and blue minerals. As I recall, a friend of mine absolutely canned this map, and frankly I can see why, but Iām still curious to see where it goes.
https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/b/bd/Post-Youth.jpg
- THANK YOU for reverting the 2v2 map pool, and team games in general. Iād love to get some actually new maps for 2v2 and the rest of multiplayer, but these are at least solid, playable maps, where most of the map pool from the current season is a pool of old maps, and most of them are frankly rubbish for various reasons. So Iām glad to see actually decent, cohesive maps in the pool that have been QAād already.
Now to the Nerfs and Buffs from each race, and oh boy, itās something alright.
GENERAL
- Worker attack range increased from 0.1 to 0.2.
- Worker inner radius (collision with terrain / structures) reduced from 0.375 to 0.3125.
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/LBR1I47MJTSJ1709832558651.gif
Both of these are kinda out of the blue; thereās no real reasoning behind them given, and I find myself generally confused why it the need to change them was made.
Theyāre not necessarily bad, per-se, but justā¦ confusing changes that feelā¦ I dunno, unnecessary?
- Reduced footprint size of Vespene Geysers.
- āZerg Rocksā now lose hp off creep.
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/OLOLHXYDJRCT1709832558696.gif
Iām excited to see the Zerg rocks used in maps and canāt wait to see how this changes things. The Vespene Geyser footprint change isā¦ interesting, not entirely sure how that will effect map making but Iām definitely curious.
- Mineral Fields now all have 500 hp (can be killed by collapsible rock towers).
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/Q8BMSLED97Y31709832558957.gif
Again, cool change; that opens up a lot of possibilities for maps and unique harassment options with new maps being made. Definitely excited for this one.
Terran
Liberator
- Advanced ballistics range bonus reduced from 3 to 2.
While I donāt think this is a strictly necessary change, I can understand why it was made. Iām down to see the results of this.
Widow Mine
- Invisibility while reloading now requires Drilling Claws upgrade instead of a constructed Armory.
Sure, this is fine. Iām glad theyāre reverting this change back to having invisibility on DC, actually. Itās a lot more intuitive having it as an upgrade, especially given that DC got a minor nerf recently to slow itās burrow time slightly. This makes sense.
- Now gives an attack alert to the enemy when burrowing in range of enemy units.
- Increased visibility of targeting line and targeted unit.
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/6OVUV6L1VZUB1709832560334.gif
Both of these make sense too; Iām entirely okay with both of these. Both of these should have happened in the last patch. The visibility of the targeted unit is REALLY important here, and with how itās increasing the longer itās targeted is actually brilliant.
- Splash damage radius reduced from 1.75 to 1.5.
This is the change Iām not sure of, however. Primarily because weāve tried this before, back in HotS, and the results were disasterous; quite literally eliminating the entire Terran race from any and all competition for almost a year - it was so bad that it makes Protossā current state now good by comparison. Round of 32s frequently had only 2 Terran players in it, and few, if any would even make it past that. And that assumed that they would qualify at all.
Now, granted, the game is drastically different from back then. Tanks are stronger; they actually pose a viable alternative for splash damage compared to being completely useless back in HotS. Expansions are faster, the Mothership Core doesnāt exist anymore so blink timings donāt hit anywhere nearly as fast as they used to then.
The change isnāt quite as drastic as the HotS version either, as the splash radius is smaller, but retains the full damage effect, rather than the HotS retaining the full radius but having scaling damage.
I still canāt see it being a good change; it might ultimately be better to simply leave the mines in than pull them away and lose mining time, as it used to be in HotS, but Iām happy to wait and see - I just want caution with this change, because we have seen how similar ones have played out in the past, and I hope that we can learn from those mistakes.
Armory
- Cost reduced from 150/100 to 150/50.
I assume this is to offset the widow mine nerfs. Iām not complaining; could result in some new builds but it feels like a nothing change, ultimately.
Engineering Bay
- Infantry weapons/armor upgrades cost reduced from 100/175/250 to 100/150/200.
This is definitely bigger; and frankly it feels unnecessary from my PoV. Not sure why this change is being included - again, thereās no real reasoning given in the thread.
Cyclone
- Weapon cooldown increased from 0.48 to 0.58.
- Lock On now cooldown increased from 0 to 2.86.
- Damage bonus per weapon upgrade increased from 1 to 2.
- Weapon now has turret tracking, turns faster, removed damage point.
- Health increased from 110 to 130.
This is a difficult one to quantify; on the one hand, itās a nerf to certain cyclone builds. Lockon isnāt instant anymore, and the unit fireās slower (though Iām not sure if that will affect Lockonās overall damage output with the fire-rate change).
On the other hand, the unit now scales much better since it gets a lot more damage with upgrades, and itās slightly Tankier. Ultimately, itās a bit of a mixed bag; and sadly I donāt think that these changes are particularly good changes either. Frankly I would have preferred to see the Cyclone reverted back to its tech-lab days with the damage upgrade it used to have. It was niche then, but it still had a use.
The change certainly does nothing to stop the issues of BCs in TvT either (though this hasnāt really been a factor in pro play), which cyclones were used for back before its rework.
Raven
- Interference Matrix can no longer target units already targeted or affected by Interference Matrix.
Iām assuming that this is a nerf directed at the TvP Raven push specifically, meant to make it harder to multi-cast IM on colossus. Ultimately I donāt really think itās going to do much there, but Iām not complaining about this change either.
ZERG
Infestor
- Vision range while burrowed reduced from 10 to 8.
- Unburrow time increased from 0.36 - 0.71 seconds to 0.54 - 0.71 seconds.
- (Range relates to random delay).
- Burrowed Infestor is now more visible while moving.
All of these Iām 100% okay with. Burrowed infestors really werenāt that obvious while moving before so I donāt mind these at all. Burrowed units in general shouldnāt have full vision radius anyway, and the fact that Infestors did was rather silly IMO.
- Fungal Growth range increased from 9 to 10.
This is the big one for me that Iām REALLY not sure I like at all. Fungal already has one of the largest damage spell radii in the game at 2.25. Increasing that cast range makes me generally concerned, especially given that the spellās large targeting radius effects units for a full 4 seconds and slows huge swaths of units drastically. Making this easier to land from further away is very, very concerning, especially since it means Ghostās Steady Targeting will be less effective against them as well.
Ultimately, Iām happy to wait and see on these changes, but again Iād caution the strength of buffing Fungal Growth as itās one of the most powerful (and frankly underused) tools in the Zerg Arsenal.
Overlord
- Transport Overlord morph time increased from 12.14 to 15 seconds.
- Transport Overlord move speed increased from 1.10 to 1.28 (2.83 to 3.00 with Pneumatized Carapace).
Sure, Iām fine with both of these changes. Gives Zerg more aggressive options for counter-attacking, but I doubt it will see all that much use given the general reluctance of Zerg players to use things like Ovi-drops at the best of times. Really itās something we generally only see from Dark and maybe Solar. Or Rogue, back in the day.
PROTOSS
Observer
- Build time reduced from 21.43 to 17.86 seconds.
- Health/Shields increased from 40/20 to 40/30.
Iām generally okay with these. If I recall, this will mean that observers survive with 5 HP left from a single widow mine splash - this is fine. Accidentally killing an observer with splash was always a little silly. It doesnāt change anything for targeted fire here, though with the mine changes in tandem with this, I do have a couple concerns, but nothing to major right now.
- Model size increased by 10% / Surveillance Mode animation speed increased by 75%.
THIS is the one Iām confused by - why exactly are we again increasing the size of the observer? Wholly unnecessary.
The wording on the 2nd half is a little ambiguous too - are we increasing the speed of the observerās ability to go into and out of Surveillance mode? Or are we increasing the speed of the animation the observer has in Surveillance mode to make it more noticeable when itās over your base/army? The former seems kind ofā¦ unnecessary, IMO. The latter Iām not going to complain about given that it could feasibly make the unit easier to spot when itās in surveillance mode.
Sentry
- Damage increased from 6 to 6 (+4 vs Shields).
Why. This changes literally nothing. Maybe in PvP itāll change something but this was never the issue the Sentry had
- Light attribute tag removed.
This is a genuinely good change since it makes banes drastically less effective against them, but IMO I donāt think this was the main issue either. Iām not going to complain about it since they were really, really fragile and felt kinda rubbish against Zerg in general, but it still feels like the change misses the mark.
PvZās biggest issue has pretty much always been that Zerg can run roughshod over them with the ability to make forcefields entirely meaningless, and this doesnāt change that one bit. Forcefields - or Ravager Bile - need a change desperately. At the bare minimum, FF needs to take 2 hits to take down from Biles, not 1.
Pylon
- Sight range increased from 9 to 10.
Oookay, kinda out of nowhere and generally fairly meaningless outside of cannon rushing. Iām assuming this has something to do with standardizing sight ranges for buildings, but I canāt be sure.
TLDR: All in all, a mixed bag of changes. Some good. Some bad. Some WTF changes. Iām glad that the team maps will be changed back to decent ones.
Didnāt mention that there were a few bug fixes, but theyāre nice fixes too.
4 Likes
my first thought was zerg rocks will favor zerg players since the fact they dont decay on creep, something to note.
If anything I suspect that would be worse for them not better. Decaying rocks opens up attack paths for Zerg to abuse - typically Zerg wants to break them down to have more flank options. Also since they donāt break, Terran can use them to limit surrounds on Tanks and other important things.
Honestly it could go either way. Maybe I want to preserve the wall to prevent a certain attack vector, so I rush out overlord speed & lair to put creep at the wall. Or maybe I put a proxy hatch at it, bring a queen, cancel the hatch & build a tumor. You pay 75 minerals for that tumor but if it slows down an attack by 20 seconds then itās totally worth it. Or maybe I want the wall gone so that I can sneak my units out on the map via an unusual route that is unlikely to be scouted. Itās a good change. They are headed in the right direction.
Infestor
Vision range while burrowed reduced from 10 to 8.
Unburrow time increased from 0.36 - 0.71 seconds to 0.54 - 0.71 seconds.
Burrowed Infestor is now more visible while moving.
Serral does it again. A specific nerf.
WM
Now gives an attack alert to the enemy when burrowing in range of enemy units.
Increased visibility of targeting line and targeted unit.
they found a way after all. it only took a year.
Splash damage radius reduced from 1.75 to 1.5.
easier and better would be āremove WM from the gameā
but at least itās going in the right direction.
letās see if the combination of Wm/lib nerf and Fungal buff helps against boring Ghost turtle style.
1 Like
Serral, Dark, Solar. About the only āTop Zergā that didnāt do this lategame was Reynor and heās pretty meh with spellcasters, generally relying on brute force trades.
1 Like
I really like the changes proposed in this balance patch, I would like you to consider reducing the energy cost of the Sentryās Guardian Shield from 75 to 50, this would help a lot to defend in difficult moments.
1 Like
The Sentry could really need some more love here, in a all matchups as a core caster support unit. Its a start, but i think that should be a focus point for changes.
Sentry
* Damage increased from 6 to 6 (+4 vs Shields).
* Light attribute tag removed.
Widomine change is good and the observer Shield buff, preventing the one shot.
Cyclone feels more like a buff with the HP from 110 to 130. So you need 2 more shots with stalker to kill one. Well, we will see how the cyclone will play out in TvP i guess.
1 Like
Didnāt Observer already get cheaper how cheaper can it get?
meh for Liberator change
Will people still think mine OP because if they do not know how to counter it, it will be still be OP to them
3 Likes
HEALING SHRINES
TOWN HALL
Anyone still having doubts this game is managed literally by WarCraft/Diablo team ?
You know there are healing stations in the game - specifically theyre in the editor and have been used in the recent tlmc - and that a town hall is a coloquial term for main base structure, right?
1 Like
No, i donāt.
There is no such thing as Town Hall or Healing Shrines in all of SC2. Never heard of them. And i donāt care about entries in editor. Even if they appear there they should be renamed.
Healing shrines LMAO. What about Magic fountains ?
You may not like the terms, but both of these things still exist. They are synonymous at the very least.
1 Like
Yeah, but the reason i donāt like these terms is only because it is so suggestive that people who balance/manage the game have no clue what SC2 really is. Imagine playing SC2 and someone calling CC āTown hallā just because it appears in the editor. Imagine mentioning Healing Shrines ? What is this ? Since release of SC2 i never heard of Healing Shrines. I canāt believe it even exists in the game. Not even in COOP i ever heard of this.
I hope you got my point. Game is balanced by people who should not touch it.
To be blunt, I care more about the details of the changes themselves than the terms that the team making those changes use to describe things. Itās not like specifying town hall is that much different from using command structure or some other synonym, and it saves time over specifying all of these structures by name.
2 Likes
Neither do i care, but like i said - it is a small hint the game is in wrong hands - and that is something we should be worried about. Because SC2 should only be balanced by people who play it, not balance team from other video games.
Apart from that
- Cyclone - iām sick of rebalancing/redesigning this unit over and over again. I think it should be removed and replaced by buffs to other unit. I was never a fan of this. I always felt like Cyclone have very niche roles - build only one and forget it for the rest of the game, just like Reaper
- Widow mine - nerf cool, what do you give in return ? How do you stop protoss eco now ? Hellion drops, banshees ? They are literally nerfing the only viable harass option vs protoss right now.
- Lib range nerf ? Why ? Was liberator OP recently ? Oh wait some zerg crybaby whined about this because Libs killing ultras too fast ? Then use Ghosts - oh wait! Ghosts have been nerfed THREE times in a row - snipe cancel, shockwaves removed and snipe dmg 170 ā 130.
Sighā¦
1 Like
Whoops! Looks like something broke. You could try restarting Battle.net.
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More help: BLZBNTAGT00001389 Ā¢
Mac 2017 here with up-to-date version os. cannot update SC2 at the moment. Restarting client launcher. Reinstalling SC2. Restarting computer, nor scanning & repairing files will NOT allow me to update SC2. Advising to ask other Mac users experiencing the same issue.
EDIT: it wonāt even allow me to scan & repair.
Theyre a place where you can park a portion of your army atop, and it will heal them. A literal healing shrine. As I said, there were some in the most recent TLMC.
2 Likes
Not one mention in any campaign, ladder, co-op. I swear i never heard of them. What mode do they exist ? Some arcade games ?