Sorry I don’t enjoy getting flamed by randoms, silly me.
i got news for you, your now getting it for thinking the way you do. You should probably keep your comments to yourself instead of posting them on the forums if you dont want flamed for it.
I can easily leave the forums anytime. I’m not going to cop it in online games though.
lol, you can easily leave the games to but you still play them, and your still here posting the very not smart things you do as always. so whats stopping you from walking away from both. please tell us oh bright one.
The answer is boredom
Jaron >> Dude you need to scout and then be ready to deal with " the cheese" go to youtube and search sc2 scouting.
Any strategy is valid if it can be used successfully to get a win. Doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good strategy or a fun strategy, but it is valid.
Does that extend to bug abusers? An extreme example is the flying SCV bug. For 2 weeks, ordinary people couldn’t get a proper game.
These cannon rushers may not seem that extreme to you, but they ruin the game for many. And because the players that do it infest the ladder, you can’t avoid it. At what point does it just become blatantly unfair? It’s all part of the game right? Well there is a line. Sure, you can blame the game developers, but the people actively ruining the experience for others are also to blame.
P.S - I know your response to this will be “you have to scout it”, but then why can’t I ‘cannon rush’ without copping abuse? The community hates it.
Cannon rushing isn’t a bug though, so your comparison is entirely irrelevant.
Yes, the community hates it because it’s un-fun to play against, and many view it as skill-less though it does have its own inherent game knowledge that does need to be taken into account, I certainly wouldn’t say it’s a particularly fun strategy to deal with or play. But the thing about games like this is that what is fun for one person isn’t always going to be fun for others, and what one person views as skilled isn’t going to be viewed the same by others.
I have had plenty of people rage at me after I outplayed them in a 25 minute macro game. I have had plenty of people gg me after a 3 minute cheese. It doesn’t matter. There will always be those sorts of people no matter what strategies you use.
I’m a protoss player and I actually don’t like canon rush either, but it’s part of the game and I accept that. The solution is that you learn to scout, as I wrote. There are some signs to look out for: 1.) The first probe arrives at your base very early before 1.00. 2.) Is there a second probe heading towards your base? 3.) Has your opponent built an early forge? Then there are many indications that you are exposed to canon rush, and it can easily be dealt with if you discover it in time.
I can see both sides to this argument. On one hand, it’s mostly a L2P issue…though worker rushes can be really dumb because it’s damn near impossible to scout it…BUUUUT…luckily you can beat it by worker drilling/phasing your workers through theirs to get a surround…or by being Terran and just playing normally with a wall to the main lol.
But on the other hand, cheeses are pretty low value and are pretty frustrating. You don’t learn much from vsing cheese except how to defend it and it’s a frustration point that probably causes some newer players to quit.
My solution is pretty simple: just get better maps in play that make stuff like cannon rushing, worker pulls, etc that happen extremely early not really feasible.
You do this by creating winding paths with destructible rocks to make it super inefficient and bad to try or you bring back 4p maps for 1v1 so you can’t just blindly do it.
Either way fixes the issue without really screwing the game up too badly…and plus the map pool blows pretty bad so a refresh could be good. Ideally not voted on by people with a conflict of interest, Blizzard employees should be the ones with the final call, not some balance council or community leaders or whatever they’re calling that dumb program these days.
Sorry but i completely disagree with this one. Cannon rush is perhaps the only strategy which cannot be scouted in normal time (17-19 worker scout). First pylon warps in the moment when your scouting worker leaves a base - so you already know it’s cannon rush and you have to react to this accordingly.
To scout a cannon rush BEFORE it begins you need to send worker at 13 supply at the latest.
Mate, you 100% can scout a cannon rush simply based off the timing a probe is coming over to your natural. Sending out a 17 scout will so often catch them as they start because they’re almost at your base rather than meeting half way. It’s precisely why you scv scout at all; just gotta learn to read the tells, same with any other build. A probe crossing early is definitely a tell. And you keep a worker on their probe to make sure they don’t drop a pylon. If they do, then you have seen it happen and can react.
For them to start cannon rushing you they have to complete the first pylon, drop the forge and send the probe over. If theyre doing it early, then the probe is going to be early too, which means they have to pull a 2nd probe and send it over before the first pylon finishes - which you will see arriving with your standard scout anyway since it generally takes a good 30 seconds or so to cross the map.
If they’re not sending an early probe to drop a 2nd pylon, then the first probe crosses at the same your worker does and you can keep track of where the probe is a lot more easily because you know its coming and know when it should be there.
You don’t need to scout a cannon rush before it begins. You just have to catch it as it begins. If you’re catching it after then you’re in trouble.
Pretty much you confirmed what i said above - it is impossible to scout cannon rush BEFORE it begins. You can only check if the probe arrives early and based on that assume cannon rush is on the way and react accordingly.
However there are several variations of cannon rushing
- standard - pylon/cannons warped in at your natural close to ramp and slowly progressing towards your main
- aggresive - pylons are warped in directly in your main (WOL\HOTS style). Sometimes they send two probes. This can be tricky to defend because it depends how many workers you need to pull from mining to kill first pylon.
- delayed - probe pretends it is scouting and after few moments you get like 3 pylons around your base.
Also don’t forget level topology - some levels have stupid “dents” where you can shield a single cannon with like two pylons etc.
So we can come to a conclusion that you cannot scout cannon rush like any normal build. You have to scout natural and react to whatever you see.
Well, I wouldn’t agree with that. As a protoss I would usually scout after pylon. Yes, pro-players would not want to lose few minerals and scout after the gate, but I am only ML, so it’s okay. Scouting after pylon, means that I will see the forge at the moment, when his probe will arrive at my base. So I will know that it’s a cannon rush and pull the probes, no matter if there are 1 or 2 probes. If I meet the second probe on the way, then I will pull the workers even earlier.
As far as I remember, you are terran, so I would suggest scouting with scv, instead of the reaper. You would never have a problem with scouting cannon rush, because you would 100% know if it’s a cannon rush or not, before the protoss places the first pylon near your main.
That’s exactly what i do. I scout with scv at 18 and almost never make a reaper (waste of 50 gas if you cannot jump to toss base because of walled off cliff).
The concern was if it is possible to scout cannon rush before forge finishes. In that case you have to send a worker at 14 supply at the latest.
You’ve just described scouting something, so… congratulations? You now understand how to scout a cannon rush.
Once again, you have just described how scouting works. Congratulations, you have grasped the most basic principle of competitive multiplayer.
I think that´s too late scout at 16 instead.
Honestly, don’t look at what pros do. They have their own specific meta that doesn’t reflect what ladder is actually like: they literally play against the player, the race they happen to play is irrelevant.
Pylon scouting is exactly how you should be doing things because that’s the only way you’re going to catch the more egregious cheeses without completely demolishing your opener.
I am a protoss player at 14 I build my pylon at 16 I build my Gateway and scout. Most of the time I am able to see indications of a canon rush and deal with it. After the canon rush is over I make a counter attack and usually win the game.