Question for poortosses

General Discussion
41

Because frankly speaking a lot of the GSL protoss players were not as good.

I realise that sounds shallow as an explanation but lets take a look, shall we?

Stats and Classic, both dominant prior to their military service, which Stats is finishing soon, and occasionally debatably herO and sOs, were arguably the best protoss players in GSL.

Trap was very noticably a tier below them in skill as well as strategy - though he definitely had moments of brilliance where he shined, particularly in PvT, alongside Parting who was brilliant but struggled in PvZ comparatively, and after that you had the likes of Creator, Zoun and other names who are arguably tier 2.5/3 protosses who really have done very little of note. Creator specifically, much as I like the guy, really just hasn’t been very good historically and struggled to even make it past the Ro16, though recently he seems to have had a once off performace high, much to my disappointment.

Stats is soon to finish military service, Classic has returned from military a while back. Classic has yet to regain his former strength. Creator is Creator, Zoun could be good but needs a lot more work before that, Trap just really hasn’t been able to break out of his tier 2 state with some absolutely abysmal performances this year, despite beforming okay last year in foreign tournaments, and sOs and Parting have retired.

With the exception of herO, that leaves us with players who really are not the cream of the crop as far as protoss tactics, micro and macro go, and players who almost never reinvent the wheel the way herO did when he returned, preferring to stick instead to the same style that had been failing them for years rather than try something new.

And don’t get me wrong, theyre all good players, far better than any of us ladder and forum plebs, but while they’re good players, they’re not great players compared to players like Maru, like Dark, like Rogue, like TY former.

It may seem like a cop out, but in reality, much as I hate to say it, there just hasn’t been many good protoss players to take up the mantle until herO stepped into the scene again, and frankly is playing better than he ever has.

1 Like
42

I answered your question repeatedly. A single best of series cannot distinguish between luck, skill and/or balance. You need more data points. You need hundreds or thousands of data points. For example, if you bump up the number of data points to include the semi finals, Protoss performance increases sharply.

What you are doing is called cherry picking. You are isolating the 0.0001% of data which confirms your theory and ignoring the 99.999% of data which doesn’t.

By your logic if we loaded a pig into a cannon and shot it into the air, analyzed only this data, we could prove pigs fly. It makes sense, doesn’t it? Pigs obviously can fly. No it doesn’t. Cherry picking is not a valid argument. The moment you start restricting what data is included in your analysis your analysis became irrelevant.

3 Likes
43

They would HAVE to be, on average, massively less skilled to play so much more and so much longer and have so much less MMR.

Could be likely, if they didn’t play more… But even still, if they were, why would they have 20% less MMR? The numbers don’t add up.

That’s the thing, none of your numbers add up, you don’t provide any. The last time they did, they backfired on you, so then you went with some distribution principle that may or may not be in effect, entirely irrelevant because the numbers tell the opposite story.

You know, you almost have enough brain power to be average, if only you gave your brain a chance… It’s really a shame.

Except, literally every pro player (even ones who play YOUR RACE) who’s ever had an opinion on the topic. I guess they’re all idiots and you know better?

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44

This hasnt anything to do with it at all and the difference is pretty small. 1% Activity difference.

Nope. You have actually 0 Idea of how statistics Work. You dont fit 1 Attribute to ALL in a group. I have explained to you Like 100 Times. Honestly. Are you dense? Its exactly Like Smoking: people that smoke are on average dumber but that doesnt mean Smoking makes you dumb or that all people are dumber that smoke. Same applies with terran only in a much much much smaller way (only noticeable difference is that they flood silver League)

But they do tho o.O you still didnt Come Up with any explanation how mere exposure is false or why it fits perfectly for terran AND zerg and should Somehow Not be correct. Because it adds up pretty nicely.

The distribution has nothing to do with the Numbers presented. Wow. You Just make you world how you want it to be. Saying the distribution cant be that way because terran Activity is 1% Higher. Lols. And No…the Numbers dont Tell another Story…

Then get me one pro Player who says terran is Harder because they flood silver league. Have fun searching.

Man how much can someone get enraged about terrans in silver ? How dumb someone needs to be that this is a valid Point ?

45

Seems very shallow, but let’s find out about your ‘reasons’ and see if there is actually something to it…

  1. Stats got relieved from military service a week ago.
  2. They weren’t dominating prior to their military service: zerg was with players like Reynor, Serral, Dark, Rogue,…
  3. You also missed out on Trap & Zest who were peforming better then Stats or sOs during multiplle years prior to them going to military service (and Parting who was a higher tier in toss then sOs). As good as sOs was in the early years of starcraft, the moment they changed the amount of starting workers his playstyle and the power of toss in general received a blow. [/quote]
  1. During 2 years before Stats and sOs had to go to military Trap & Zest were consistently higher ranked then both of them. They year 2021 was toss domination for Trap on every criterium. You can check that on aligulac. During those two years he also earned more prize money, won more important tournaments or finished higher on average. Stating he was a tier below them in skill and strategy is just factual nonsense.
  2. Trying to compare sOs at the peek of his career - The early years of scII when they didn’t start with 12 workers- to now makes no sense. Complete different meta, complete different strategies, and that was actually an era where toss dominated like we have one now where zerg dominates.
  3. You do have a point that Creator and Zoun are not even close to Trap, Stats and sOs, but that’s about it (and you also missed out on Zest).
  1. Again you’re wrong: he has already finished his military service. You can find that on liquipedia. The question remains if and more specifically when he will return.
  2. Classic won’t regain his former level: he has been out of military for almost 2 years now and is nowhere near the level he once had. This is either due to his motivation dropping or him getting slower compared to the ‘new(er) kids on the block’ in the form of Clem, Reynor, and if you’re talking pure KR other players that haven’t had their career interupted by that stupid mandatory military service (like Dark & Maru).
  3. The reason why Trap this year had an abysmal form is because he stopped putting in the necessary effort because he knew he had his mandatory military service, which he is forfulling now. He mentioned numerous times when he streamed that he really wasn’t motivated anymore because of that. I guess you missed that.
  4. sOs retired, Parting is planning to make a comeback when his military service is forfilled.
  1. You have two problems interfering with eachother. Some of the stronger players like Trap and Stats were or currently (Trap &Zest) are now in the military and another very strong EU-one prefers his hermit life above showing up in offline tournaments (Maxpax).
  2. You can’t deny that there is a statistical anomaly in the fact that apparently at the very highest level in GM in EU & KR toss seems to struggle more then the other two races. It’s basically the same as ignore that in the beginning the meta with the lower amount of starting workers favored them a bit more (well I guess you can, but it wouldn’t make any sense). If you spot an anomaly that the race that’s played most somehow magically doesn’t have the highest representation at the top of the GM-league in the strongest regions, there is more to it then just struggling or the players not being in form.
  1. Hard to say too if you think about it. I guess if you look at consistency you might have a point. However always take into account that in the last years zerg has been the strongest race. All of the nerfs after they had 5/8 spots in the quarters and 3/4 in the semis at blizzcon 2019 were there for a reason. I guess I can agree with Maru being in his own league in the Terran segment and toss not having a player that is consistently the best of that race. For the zergplayers, I reserve judgement. They are very very good but I still think that at the very top the GM-league, they might have a little edge by just playing that race.
  2. What baffles me most is you actually leaving out Serral (unless you’re just focusing on KR) because he’s the true goat of this game with his relative ‘young’ career already winning most of the prizemoney, tournaments, and being more or less consistently being the best zerg (only one coming close is reynor who for god knows which reason you also left out).

Apart from all the mistakes, inconsistancies, inaccuracies, I can agree that herO is playing better then he ever has been… but that’s the only thing I can fully agree on.

46

This is hilarious. Im from Pennsylvania friend. Nice try though.

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47

Get back in my head you alter ego. you have no reason for existance :stuck_out_tongue: .

48

Didnt you read? Im the prime personality here, apparently. Get thee behind me.

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49

This is true, I did forget Zest, though I mentioned both trap and Parting.

Eh, I was actually thinking of him just before retirement though I will say he was still mechanically a tier below the tier 1 players, strategically he was well above almost anyone else. The nexus recall adept play is still extremely memorable even now a couple years after his retirement.

I hedged my bets here, I knew he was due to finish (or had finished within the last month) fairly soon, but I was on mobile and at work, so couldnt check. Thanks for the correction. Doesn’t really change much but still.

Yeah I’m just explicitely focusing on KR and GSL in particular, rather than across all tournaments.

I won’t deny most of it is opinion. To your second sentence, yes I was primarily basing the statements off general consistency, rather than tournament winnings and the like. As I said before it is also for GSL specifically.

50

Tho im flattered im not actually a native speaker. I think its pretty obvious but still im flattered :slight_smile:

51

Dont even try to reason with them. Their judgement is clouded by their own little egos. They can see how ridiculous they look losing with toddler friendly race so they try to hide it. It’s really embarrassing for them. Deep down, I’m sure they know but they enjoy taking free undeserved wins.

52

Hey little boy, come back when you play the real game play? You look silly trying to lie and say nothing matters to defend your broken race.

53

Broken race huh it takes 5 year to get one gsl trophy and after that here we go again whine wave about optosess

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54

Sometimes I want to inquire regarding which of these posts are serious and which ones are just having a fun time trying to get some big fights going. It’s usually a good clue when the original poster doesn’t feel the need to reply and just lets the sparks fly.

Still, actually finding out would ruin the magic that makes the official forums so entertaining!

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55

Said the one who hides his profile.

I mean im not the one saying terran is underpowered because silver players cant advance.

If there is one rational and well thought argument why terran is underpowered and/or protoss is overpowered then let me know.

56

Okay, so then they’re just as casual as any other race, it doesn’t mean Terran players are somehow way harder working, the difference is minimal, no doubt, but it entirely disproves the idea that the Terran population is newer or more casual, which is what you Parrot repeatedly despite clear evidence to the contrary.

Then you take something like the mere exposure effect and stretch the definition of it to somehow mean that Terran players are “getting less out of their games.”

Please show the numbers within “mere exposure effect.” And mere exposure does add up, it just doesn’t explain a gap in skill that you shoehorned in just to make your own stupid ideas fit.

I’m VERY clearly your intellectual superior and it’s not even close. Even you probably know that.

Keep dodging my question about TVZ…

57

Not underpowered, more difficult, stop with the brain dead strawmen. I’m not accusing you of being smart, but you are smarter than that.

I think I understand why you keep dodging the TVZ question. Because if you finally admit that you made a statement of fact, with literally zero evidence, it proves that you were willing to do so, just to make yourself feel better. At which point your entire house of cards starts crumbling.

You know I defeated you, but your little ego can’t take having been wrong. A real man knows when to admit mistakes, Sentry.

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58

That’s actually exactly how it works. They relish in the imbalance. They think, “I’ve waited my whole life for something to favor ME and here it is!”. They are going to abuse it to the maximum, with no shame, and rub your face in it as they do it; flaunting and flailing.

3 Likes
59

Its simple. More terran players are at the bottom of the ladder because their race is harder. Worst players cannot get past the vast mechanical requirement of terran and they are therefor stuck at the base of the pyramid. How dense are you to not grasp a concept so simple?

“bUt YoU CaNt PrOvE tHaT” isnt a valid argument. We cant know anything for sure doesn’t mean we cant try to draw conclusions and compare them to our perspective of balance (which clearly indicates protoss is broken to every non protoss players). There are more terran players are at the base of the pyramid and more protoss players at the top of the pyramid. WOW, I WONDER WHY MAN?!??!

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60

yep. Just absolutely shameless. Its the first time they’re getting wins at anything so they just rack up the wins here because they can’t in real life. Even if those wins are literally handed to them.