Put the Marauder attack back to 2x instead of 1

Yeah no lol. Learn to shift click siege your libs dude. You can also target fire with them if they’re attacking lings or something stupid.

That’s called learning to play. You might as well whinge about having to keep Ghosts in empty Medevacs to avoid the feedback/emp war lol.

EXACTLY MY POINT. They’re the intermediary anti armor unit, they exist to provide the anti armor that Terrans need out of the rax without giving them a bio thor or something just as stupid. You don’t need them to beat Ultras, they’re just…the nice, easy, brainless option to handle them. Nerfing that isn’t going to make Ultras these ungodly death machines that Terran can’t handle especially now that Terran players have become respectably good compared to back when 8 armor Ultras were a thing and thus will know how to handle Ultras without leaning on the Marauder crutch.

Testing Marauders going back to 2 attacks imo is reasonable enough to go into a PTR.

This isn’t a “shift-click” issue. Ultralisks are fast units that can clear a Liberator zone within 2.12 seconds (off creep and assuming the speed nerf goes through). Unless you stop the Ultralisks from moving (such as turtling behind a wall), your Liberators will not get many shots off.

And you want to nerf Marauders to such an extent that they won’t even do that much.

At 0/0, you are nerfing Marauders against Ultralisks by 25%, and at 3/3 you are nerfing Marauders against Ultralisks by about 37%; and this is a fight that the Marauders already lose in the current patch without kiting or a supply advantage or a wall. If you throw in Zerglings, Banelings, Fungals, Blinding Clouds, or other units on the Zerg side against a mixed Bio force, the Zerg side is favored.

Nah, this is a shift click/positioning issue. As the Ultras move past the circles, you re-siege them.

I know, micro, weird, right? You can’t just no skill it.

Solution: don’t use Marauder balls to beat Ultralisks. That’s not even what happens in the current meta, people use Libs and Ghosts. Your Ultralisk argument is a red herring, it’s not even how Terrans handle Ultralisks currently.

It takes longer to siege a Liberator than it does for the Ultralisks to clear that zone. The Terran player has to micro both the Bio and the Liberators, and unless they find a way to stop the Ultralisks from moving those Liberators will not get more than about 2-3 shots off.

You mean “don’t use Marauders at all”, because they frankly won’t be useful with that nerf. It was tried before, and it was reverted for a reason.

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Except your point only works if they can do their job as a stop-gap which they can’t do by splitting the attacks

Again, a Zerg literally never needs to engage under lib zones unless they’re attacking into you.

Plus, you also have to consider all the other micro that’s occuring as well, so shift clicking ultras, while important, is something that takes away from splitting, kiting, sniping, tank focus fire and whatever else you’re doing at the same time - I’m not saying it’s impossible, just that the requirements for Terran are already high while the control requirement for Zerg is generally pretty low comparatively.

Again, wrong. If marauders are supposed to serve as a stop-gap while you get up the correct tech, by splitting attacks you’re actively removing the terran’s ability to do that.

The current state of the game is such that Terran can’t effectively fight Zerg in late-game without turtling behind mass planetary and hoping the Zerg engages into them, rather than the other way around. You’re relying mostly on harassment to pick apart a Zerg at that point, and hoping to force them into fighting you on your terms. With the exception of maybe Clem, you never see otherwise occur.

With the Ultra pathing changes allowing them to shove through their own units, and the ghost nerf also occurring at the same time, this is going to be even harder to do than it already is (which, these changes are fine, they need to happen).

Splitting the marauder attack again would ultimately completely gut Terran’s ability to even get to late-game, let alone play it, and that’s without even considering how such at thing would effect upgrade scaling as well.

This is genuinely hilarious coming from you.

This isn’t a shift-click issue, this comes entirely down to the amount of tasks a terran has to do mid-fight, and unsiege-resiege micro is extremely low on the priorities of things Terrans should be doing during a fight. As terranic stated, liberator zones aren’t going to get many - if any - shots off unless the Zerg is attacking into you in an already fortified position.

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I know and playing better is literally the solution. If you don’t have the APM to handle rapid fire shift click deploying Libs as you hold the Ultras with a contingent of bio then that’s just a git gud moment.

It’s not like Ultralisks show up at 3 mins and it’s not like you can’t scout that Ultralisk warren so this is kind of weak imo.

It was reverted because Terran players were quitting the game. The meta had adapted, pros were handling Ultras. It wasn’t a balance problem as much as it was a balance decision proves to be wildly unpopular with bio terran players problem.

I don’t even know what to say about this, the Immortal is getting a 15% DPS nerf and it doesn’t have stim. Does it suddenly stop doing it’s job because it shoots slower?

A 20% DPS nerf to the Marauder isn’t going to make the Marauder not do bonus damage to armor, it’s not going to take away stim or concussive shell. It’s not turning it into a mechanical unit so Medevacs can’t heal is. So what in that thick skull of yours makes you think that it’s not going to do it’s job anymore or is this more Terran rules for thee, not for me bull?

I want a bloody answer to that.

You can siege Libs over Ultras. Not valid. This is L2P issue.

Also a L2P issue. If you can’t do the micro then practice so you can. Welcome to reality Miro. It’s been a while, hey?

Prove it with math or just shut up man. Jesus. Marauders aren’t even the meta way to handle Ultras. If pros can figure this out, if masters can figure this out…if metal leaguers can figure this out WHY CAN’T YOU?

That’s literally how Terran plays as a race unless you’re doing timing attacks. You turtle behind defenses, launch harass expeditions and then late game you come in with a big ol’ doomball that makes Protoss clumps look like a multi-prong attack.

So, stutter-step; unsiege; stutter/split; resiege; stutter/split; oops, need to resiege again because the front-line is constantly moving; stutter/split, etc. And that is if you don’t have Ghosts that need to EMP/Snipe or Tanks that need to focus-fire as well.

Yeah, this is why Miro said that Liberators are best used defensively. When you have a wall of structures or Planetaries that can halt the opposing army in its tracks. If you can’t do that, then juggling Liberators while microing other units gets ridiculous.

The Immortal is getting a 10% DPS nerf in exchange for reverting its cost. Personally, I don’t think the Immortal’s DPS needs to be decreased here, but it is far less significant than your proposed nerf to Marauders against targets such as Ultralisks. The number of shots to kill remains the same, and Immortals have a wider range of damage values than Marauders as it is upgraded, which easily cancels out most enemy armor upgrades…

And either you have to stop and get overrun on the ground, or the Ultralisks will rush right through those zones.

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Yeah, it sucks but that’s what high level play looks like. You’re doing constant rotations and screen flicks to get through what I term your “MMO skill cycle” since it’s basically the same thing but a bit more complex.

For me, I can’t do everything perfectly and when I lose because I screwed up I take that as a sign I need to get better, if I’m interested in improving my skills. If not then I accept that it’s a self-imposed limitation.

Until you can go through all those actions and not mess them up IDK if we really have any right to be claiming anything that happens late game is a problem because skill expression can mostly offset it.

Otherwise why are we talking about Ultras? Lets talk about mass BC Thor with mass OC to sack ALL the SCVs. Now that’s a late game problem (but the answer is don’t let Terran max out on BC Thor, that’s expensive and takes forever to set up).

Best use=/=only use. Yes ideally you want the enemy to attack into Lib zones but you can put those Lib zones over enemy units if you so choose. If you choose not to, that’s a you problem, not Ultralisks need Marauders to beat them problem.

Oh I agree but that’s not my point. My point is that if the Immortal nerf (did they change it from 15% to 10%?) doesn’t make the Immortal not do it’s job anymore. It makes it do a worse job at what it already does, 100% but that doesn’t remove it’s role. Claiming a DPS nerf to the Marauder invalidates it’s role is like claiming that the Immortal doesn’t do it’s job with it’s DPS nerf and in both cases it’s not true, it just does a worse job.

Do you scan ahead of your army to know what’s coming ahead? Because a big, big part of Terran is pre-sieging your tanks, mines and libs. I feel like there’s a disconnect here and that’s probably it.

Except that this nerf scales up to 37% in some cases. It is not a consistent or clean 10% or minus 1-2 damage. You would have an easier time arguing for either of those.

Do you know what the difference is? The difference is:

A) Immortals aren’t getting a split attack, they’re getting an attack speed nerf that’s actually closer to 10%, not 15% (and yes, I agree that this nerf is unwarranted). You’re proposing a nerf that is not only significantly greater than 15%, but will actively prevent the marauder from doing its job in the first place.

B) Immortals do 50 damage to armour at base. They don’t care anywhere nearly as much about armour as a split attack marauder does. But for arguments sake, lets imagine that we split this into 2 attacks instead of the 1 attack that the immortal does. Immortals would go from doing 50-7=43 damage to ultras, to doing 50-(7x2)= 36 damage to ultras at base. That’s a 28% decrease in damage output just by splitting the attack; and for marauders it’s much more significant because they don’t scale as well as immortals do.

Both the immortal and the marauder would effectively be gutted in their role against the Ultralisk specifically. The immortal wouldn’t care as much about getting a split attack against other units because it’s damage output is so high, and is vastly greater than the Marauder’s is. The marauder cares a lot more.

I genuinely can’t tell if you’re joking or if you’re actually this thick. This is an argument that’s literally already been answered by Terranic earlier in the thread:

This is faster than a liberator can re-siege (2.89 seconds), so liberators won’t get any shots off if you’re trying to unsiege and re-siege your liberators. This isn’t a skill issue, this is a “You’re being an idiot” issue.

And again, you’re also attempting to do all of that while Kiting, splitting, sniping and focus firing with your bio/tanks simultaneously while the zerg has to do… what, exactly? throw out a blinding cloud or a fungal and then not care about the rest of the engagement. At this stage of the game, they’re not doing much else in terms of the engagement, so you’re actively making an already difficult engagement even more difficult while simultaneously lowering the already minimal requirements for Zerg in what they have to do - which are already being lowered even further with the Ultralisk pathing changes in the PTR.

“Rules for thee and not for me!” - Terran is already the most micro heavy race. You want to make the most micro heavy race even more micro heavy race while removing what little micro there is for Zerg.

Welcome to reality DankTemplar, there’s a reason you’re being treated with scorn. Wake up and smell the sh!t you’re spouting.

That you can’t see the relationship between the nerf and the marauder’s ability to do it’s job as a stop-gap then that says a lot.

At +3 marauders do 26 damage currently. 7 armour ultras make marauders do 19 damage. Marauders would instead do 12 damage per attack against the Ultralisk. That’s a 37% damage reduction at maximum upgrades. while not quite halving the damage, you’ve completely screwed the Marauder’s ability to act as a stop-gap vs Ultralisks because they literally can’t buy enough time since they can’t kill ultras fast enough that you can actually get out the defenses and the units necessary to do so.

I’m sorry, what? Literally every game we see that’s not turtle-mech - which we already know is a garbage playstyle and is almost never seen at pro level - in TvX is about Terran being aggressive, baring defending specific timing attacks. The Terran is always the one being aggressive, because that’s how they play and how they’re designed. The onus is literally always on the Terran to be aggressive, to slow down their opponent or kill their opponent before they can get out of control.

How delusional are you to think otherwise?

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And in other cases it’s a damage buff (when you have more +attack than they have armor).

The answer to the higher end of that scale (37%) is to not slack off on attack ups. It’ll still be a nerf but if you keep up on the bio attack ups it’ll be reasonable. But if you slack all game and they get 3 armor to your 0 attack, well. You deserve what’s about to happen lmao.

This alone tells me you don’t actually know how armour works. it’s literally never a damage buff. Ever.

When you have a split attack, the armour on a unit applies twice - one for each attack.

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That is practically never the case, and in the few cases where a Marauder “could” perform better, that margin is far less significant than the nerf.

For comparison, think of how ineffective Immortals would be if you split their 1 attack into 5 equal parts. 5x 4 (+6 vs. Armored). Now it upgrades by 1. Exactly how would you expect this new Immortal to function against Ultralisks and Lurkers.

I agree but the point is, it’s a sliding scale and if you choose to ignore what fuels that scale and you end up doing 37% less damage that’s a “I choose not to get upgrades while my opponent did” situation.

You can’t blame anyone for that but yourself. Upgrades are important.

No, that 37% number comes from equal upgrades. Both factions at +3/3.

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Nah ur just being really weird Miro. You can literally prove this with math and it’s why I’m done talking with you for a while. I’m pretty disappointed in your weird hardliner, no logic approach.

You used to be better and I hope you get back there and when you do, I’ll be happy to raise a toast to you, cheers!

Outside of the Ultralisk, when does this happen?

I already did lmao. You just chose not to read it.

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I read and I refuted. A lot of your opinion is based on your personal limitations like APM or multitasking.

Then you have weird hyperbole like the Marauder not doing it’s job which honestly pissed me off within context of the Immortal. I snapped at you a little and I’m sorry.

And what I said about the Marauder in some instances doing additional damage gets met by this?

You’re acting outta pocket man lol.