Ah, I see, so Terran is just supposed to spend a ton more money on production and tech than the other civs in order to maintain a basic unit counter.
Please.
In the real world, in a game where terran has a ton of rax, factories and starports all sitting around ready for use and fully upgraded, they won a long time ago and are just stalling.
Now it’s a week. Keep it up bud.
The only Zerg unit that these nerfed Marauders would be effective against is the Roach. There is no reason to build them in TvZ. Maybe if you are lucky you can get an Infestor, but other units can do that too.
TvP is harder to predict, but the Marauder’s attack may only be useful against the Stalker.
In fairness, marauder damage is already mostly only useful against stalkers. Against zealots you want them more for their HP and slow than the killing power, and against everything else on the ground you want to not be in attack range with a marauder.
… I guess adepts exist and they can be equally bad at fighting each other?
Weren’t Marauders, outside of Roaches used for slowing Baelings? They were never great vs lings or hydras, etc.
You’d still see Marauders in TvP imo, having 2 attacks doesnt stop them from stimming forward and sniping Colossus. It could cause issues with shield overcharge and immortals though but with shield overcharge on it’s last legs that might not be a concern going forward.
Colossi also have 1 base armor, which means separating their attacks also directly reduces their effectiveness at that, and again further disadvantages them if the protoss has an armor upgrade advantage over the terran’s weapons.
That’s a skill issue. Any competent Protoss will be prioritizing armor upgrades regardless because it screws Marines over.
200+150 effective health with +1 armor only applying to 200 health.
How much damage does a Marauder do? 20 vs armored.
So we’ll take the 20 and -2 for armor, making it 18 damage per attack. Though this changes with armor values and shields but that gets too complex for a non-professional breakdown.
So you’re looking at approximately 19 attacks from a Marauder currently to kill a Colossus.
With 2 attacks you’re looking at approximately 16 damage instead of 18. That’s 21 attacks.
Keep in mind that it’s actually a little less than the 19 and 21 respectively because I’m applying armor values to the shield also.
Now considering the attack speed on Marauders due to stim, is taking an extra 2-3 attacks going to break the game?
Probably not.
There’ I not only supported my thesis but I also did some basic math to further support it.
Ya’ll making way too big of a deal about Marauder attacks being split again. The only case where it’s a big nerf is in cheeses and that’s good because proxy marauder is too strong.
Lmao. “Hey, this is going to be a thing the protoss is actively trying to make happen. Let’s make it actively worse for the terran when it does!”
You really wanna go down that road? Stargate openers in PvT are DEAD because of the new cyclone.
Get off your high horse.
I will admit, “nerf the marauder to hell because the cyclone is OP” is at least a novel line of argument. Bad, but novel.
Yeah, and Cyclones are getting reverted because of it.
Yep. But we still dealt with it without much whining. But the moment someone suggests that Marauders have split attacks, the world is over!
That’s why I pointed it out, the disparity between reactions is insane and unhealthy.
That wasn’t the argument. It’s 2 weeks now and I’m not opening up your posts again until the time has ended.
Consequences.
Lmao. You couldn’t even go an hour apparently. Consider me utterly unintimidated.
There is a difference between altering a unit to be more useful (and ending up in a bad state because it is overtuned), and re-implementing a nerf that previously caused issues.
Frankly, the reactor Cyclone could possibly be tweaked to find its balance point, but the balance council decided to revert it to a previously balanced state instead, and that is the easier solution.
That’s the issue, it didn’t. Not really. Terrans had unnerfed Liberators and other options online by time super Ultralisks came online. Many pros had great success using sim city to derp up the Ultalisk pathing too. The meta was adapting around the Ultralisks.
I have a theory as to why they pushed it forward in a patch regardless of the meta adapting; they were seeing a fairly large amount of people quit the game and a lot of them were the ‘bio or die trying’ crowd. It wasn’t that the 8 armor Ultralisk was op, it was that they had conditioned Terrans into playing bio non-stop and then they took a gigantic dump on pure bio players with that Ulralisk buff lol. That made a loooot of people really upset.
And since then the Ultraisk isn’t anywhere near as good as it was back then. So it’s a vestigial buff that was never revisited after the reason for the buff was removed from the game - and as a result, proxy marauder in TvP is pretty broken to the point where it’s not really reasonable.
Starcraft 2 has a lot of these weird “what the hell?” buff/nerfs/designs that made sense when they were implemented but aged like milk and NOBODY has bothered to go back and clean up the messes left behind.
We’re freaking lucky that the worst of these vestigial changes only makes TvP early game stupid.
You saying it didn’t cause issues doesn’t make it so.
The marauder being changed to split attack previously was one of the worst nerfs to happen in sc2. Marauders quite literally became useless. Basically every matchup saw a significant decrease in their useability, and a massive increase in difficulty for the Terran. Vs Zerg they basically were deleted entirely, even against roach styles, since literally anything was better than the marauder.
As for ultras, liberators only work when the ultra is engaging into you, under liberator zones. In practice, they are a mediocre solution at best. Ghosts dont work well vs ultras if you attempt to engage into them because its to easy to be swarmed, so you basically can only use them if you are turtling.
Marauders serve as both a stop-gap in a transition to ghosts and the more turtle play, but also enable you to actively have some presence on the map. Splitting their attack directly removes that again especially given the fact that ultras can now push through units, making it much harder for terran to actually kite them as it is. Given that you can quite literally hit ultra tech by 9 minutes.
The Terran has to preempt the ultra tech before it is even on the cards to actually get out enough counters to survive the first wave. And that requires both time and a ton of money, even more if you can’t use the marauder as a stop gap.
TvP was barely any better.
They are bulwarks, big fat tubby units that have slow and can keep up with Marines plus be healed by Medevacs.
Plus the damage lost was, what, somewhere between 2 and 4, depending on the unit in question and if you bothered to keep your attack ups relative to their armor ups?
I’m not saying that doesn’t matter. It does but a loss of 20% damage per attack on a unit that attacks pretty fast is moderately negligible. It shouldn’t have made them useless so I’m more inclined to think that this was due to skill issues. Remember this is the time when Terrans had literally been conditioned into bio plays 98% of the time with no real deviation - and then Blizzard took a dump on Bio with 8 armor Ultralisks. There was a major player exodus and comparatively, the skill diff between Terran pros back then and now is astronomical.
So to that end IDK man, I think this is a case of people areblowing what happened out of proportion due to the social circumstances surrounding the ‘bio or die trying’ meta which crumbled due to rushed Ultras, despite having unnerfed Liberators which utterly gutted the matchup once people started playing and stopped crying.
That last point really hits it home for me as to what actually happened. Terrans had unerfed Libs on abusable maps and they didn’t even bother until a pro did it, after that maps had to be redesigned and Libs went on to get nerfed over and over because they broke TvZ completely in favor of Terran for a few months.
I’m not taking sides in this discussion, but I do want to point out that the split attack will affect the upgrades too.
With one attack, a 0/0 marauder does 19 damage to a 0/0 colossus, and a 3/3 marauder does 22 damage to a 3/3 colossus.
With two attacks, a 0/0 marauder does 18 damage to a 0/0 colossus, and a 3/3 marauder does 18 damage to a 3/3 colossus.
So marauders end up doing better as the game goes by against armored units with a single attack, but not with a split attack. So this change affected more than just the early game cheese.
That’s one thing I didn’t consider, thanks! 2 attacks screws with scaling per upgrade. Some of the time you’ll do more damage but a lot of the time you’ll be doing less.