I’m sorry but the game has been balanced exclusively for professional players. Having zerg imbalance at pro level where they won equal amount of tournaments as the other two races combined, should never be neglected and something should be done.
According to you they should balance the game for what ? Weeklies like ESL cup or WardiTV ? As Sentry already explained to you Clem’s 93 wins comes only from the fact that mostly Terrans and Protoss players are participating in it with zergs showing little to no interest. Perhaps the reason why T and P is so dominant in ESL cup is because they want to compensate their low winrate at highest level where zerg cannot be touched.
About your APM theory:
zerg has the highest APM of all 3 races, yet it is highly inflated by the fact that zerg does a lot of actions, but very easy, repetitive actions - hatching multiple units using rapid fire, inject, transfuse, spread creep - all of that requires a lot of actions but little to no skill which i already explained to you few years ago and you conveniently ignored that.
That’s a hilariously bad take considering that, as I said earlier in the thread, we’ve actually seen skill disappear from Protoss over time. We’ve seen them literally just stop doing things that were common place at a pro level, and that’s on top of the fact that their best player literally doesn’t play offline.
TBH I can genuinely see that being an issue given that players like Stats, who have historically been incredible in the other matchups because of their generally solid and strong, non-gimmicky play, seem to falter in PvP because of its general peculiarities and volatility.
Zvz is more. 2 banes can delete a mineral line and 1 bane can delete 500 minerals of enemy army. Yet Serral dominates. A toss can’t dominate pvp cuz it’s a skill issue. I think pvp is the strongest argument for why toss has no champion teir players. They don’t have anyone dominating pvp like maru can dominate tvt. Can’t blame balance in a mirror matchup. Get good.
That’s what’s so hilarious about this discussion. They claim toss are better as 1 hotkey f2 abusers amove through code s players. It’s like, uh, what.
Absolutely false. Prior to the games retirement, david kim nerfed a race if their ladder winrate went over 55%. There are historical patch notes proving this to be the case. In the patch notes they included the ladder winrates and their theory for why they were nerfing.
If skill metrics were race specific as you claim then zerg would lead in 1 or 2, terran would lead in 1 or 2, and protoss would lead in 1 or 2. Skill metrics msasure universal skills that apply to all races, and protoss lag in all of them. It’s also easy to trace mistakes in games to these skills. For example the 1 hotkey toss in the gsl lost his oracles for free, and that’s a hotkey issue. The lack of using multiple hotkeys causes mistakes which cause losses. It’s not “inflation” when top zergs and terrans use army hotkeys, its toss suck at starcraft and you can measure it via these metrics.
While that is true historically, we don’t necessarily know that it remains true now given that DK and co are no longer the ones balancing the game.
Which, frankly given the multitude of disasters that incurred during their reign, I’m kinda okay with.
And yes, I know you’re going to point out that Toss has a higher ladder win-rate than either T or Z have had historically, or something similar. Balancing for both ladder and tournament… I’m not entirely sure that’s really possible for a game like sc2 where you have so many different units for balance. League does it, but League also only has 10 champions on the map at each point in time.
Frankly speaking as long as the game keeps getting patches, I’ll probably keep playing because I enjoy the game to much to stop.
He claims the game is balanced for the pro scene as toss win 42% of tournaments. His claim is simply factually wrong. It isn’t balanced for the pro scene. It’s balanced for the best of 7 in the premier tournament finals. Premier tournament finals are 0.0001% of games played. It’s absurd to make those the priority. David kim didn’t make tournaments a priority because he too allowed multiple races to dominate the pro scene at different periods. It’s obvious he prioritized the ladder.
It’s not like we’d be asking for a lot to ask them to be unbiased. Looking at the data and setting aside your personal biases is the bare minimum effort the balance counsel should exert. It’s perfectly reasonable. You’re setting the bar so unbelievably low. I also doubt you’d actually be ok with the policy of “literally anything goes as long as we get updates” because game design could get way worse. If I hadn’t been applying some political counter pressure, they would’ve buffed protoss to 60% of grandmaster. I’ve made it clear that they can’t get away with that without being mocked. There is a political cost to being overly biased. As people who make money by being popular it means their bias costs them money.
If they continue, I will be launching a Bill Mahr style comedy show on youtube called “congats, you have eyes” award show. It will highlight the horrendous gameplay from protoss professionals primarily. It will give awards to internet users who comment on bnet and reddit on the mistakes that they see toss players make. The goal is obviouslyto highlight that this issue is a skill issue. Every move they make there is a counterplay option. If they keep buffing toss there are options available. I’d make fun of zergs and terrans too but they don’t make the quantity and quality of mistakes so there just isn’t the same potential.
If a 1 hotkey f2 toss wins gsl, it will be a gold mine.
Game was never balanced for anything below pro level. If anything, they made some QoL changes if there was a huge demand for it (automatic gateway into warpgate transform comes to mind). Also they nerfed proxy void ray 2 years ago simply because it was abused in pro play as well as ladder. Apart from that i don’t recall i single patch made for casual players.
Yeah, yeah same bullcrap rhetoric over and over “a protoss lost trillion oracles because he used one hotkey”. How about zerg F2 a-moving ling-bane into marauders ? That’s not a skill issue ? Oh wait, zerg is designed this way.
Btw do us a favor and tell how exactly APM works and why zerg is in the lead in that regards - skill or button spam ? I’m legit curious.
It turns out it’s way harder to micro 50 units than it is to micro 10. In other news, water is wet. It really isn’t the end of the world to expect a gsl toss to not f2 his oracles to their death. The fact you are losing your mind over this is rather telling.
By the way, in addition to the “congrats, you have eyes” award, I’ll be doing doing a “blind as a bat” award for people with truly delusional takes on balance. Lmao. It’s gonna be lit.
I never knew much about Denver. He rings a bell, though. The best zerg with ling bane allins is Dark by a large margin. He could kill a third or blow up 8 drones with 12 lings and 2 banes. I saw him smurfing once and he did a ling bane allin but the opponent stabilized on 1/1 roach tech. He gets into dark’s face with a big ball of 1/1 roaches. Dark mineral walks drones at just the right moment, hold positions them to push the roaches outward, and filtered his lings through the roaches and got a cleanup. The drones allowed the zerglings to get a surround on each and every roach. The game was totally unwinnable except for that one in a million maneuver. I think Dark is likely the GOAT. Serral is definitely a better prep player. Dark doesn’t prep for anything and still does amazing. Dark in a kespa team house would obliterate serral.
Thats definetly very Important. Tvt is Not volatile. Zvz is volatile but without any Tech and with near 100% vision/scouting information due to zerglings and Overlords. Pvp is Tech heavy with Rock Paper scissor with 50% scouting information or less.
By the way, here is some hope-ium for you: https://i.imgur.com/EHOZPyN.png
KR ladder is more active now than it has been since 2016.
AlphaStar’s PvP had an 80% winrate at 6200 mmr. It only played 14 games. It’s quite likely to be much higher. We can estimate with the elo algorithm:
x - 6200 = -ln(1.0 / 0.8 - 1) * 568
x - 6200 = 787
So to give it a 50/50 win-rate, it would have to face vs a 6987 protoss opponent. Isn’t that the exact mmr range for MaxPax? Didn’t he forfeit his placement at another offline event? Hmm. It makes you think. Regardless, PvP can be solved and AlphaStar proves it.
Did you see hero struggle vs skillous? Hero has the tools available and throws. I don’t think it’s a pvp volatility issue. I think it’s a protoss is favored in all matchups except pvp issue. Pvp reveals the true skill level top protoss.
Exactly. The point being that buffing toss to the moon won’t make a toss goat because he still has to have a mastery of pvp. Pvp becomes more common when toss is op so a non goat toss will struggle more and more to win the tournament due to pvp. Hero v skillous proves this.
