It’s just one last push. It’s been over a year since the last balance update, so this is a good stopping point in more than one way. Just proving once and for all this whining is meaningless, so if any whiner thinks they’re actually doing something, this thread can be linked as a reminder that they need to get a grip and face reality.
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This thread will be linked to as an example of how PPP trolls can’t answer simple questions:
How is it that every question that I’ve asked you in the past, you get to ignore it, and suddenly, when I choose to ignore one of your meaningless questions, you decide to wave it all over the place? You haven’t even answered the important question:
Give me reasons to believe that SC2 replay stats is objective and randomly sampled data from the ladder population and I will begin to consider your question.
And if you have nothing better to say, read this:
You asked for proof that Protoss is OP. I gave it to you. Protoss does not meet the definition of “good proportions” which is what “balance” is defined as in the dictionary. You won’t answer the question because it underscores this problem. So what you are saying is that the dictionary is wrong. Protoss isn’t imbalanced, it’s the dictionary that has the wrong definition for the word! Either explain for the crowd how 3 to 1 is “good proportions” or this debate is over.
Not even flat-earthers are this dumb, by the way. None of them would say, “well earth is flat if I define round as flat” but that’s what you are trying to do.
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Didn’t answer my question. For a while, I’ve been done with this charade where I answer your questions yet you only answer like 1/10 of mine. It’s proof your biggest whiners around here have selective reading. Can’t have a discussion with someone that does this.
I’ve entertained you far more than you deserve. You’ve had your chance to speak and now you’re done, so sit down and let someone else speak. Next person
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I’ve tried to have a reasonable discussion with him and i’ve come to the conclusion batz is an dyslexic 9 years old MIT professor. That guy literally cannot read simple sentences and keep straw-man’ing ridiculous positions that dont even come close of the original point.
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LOL welcome to the club - hopefully more people realize that everything he says is a lie and he needs to seek serious medical help.
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“Prove Protoss is OP”
This is logically impossible, or rather just absurd.
Absurd because it take only a single protoss defeat to throw doubt on this statement.
Also, without any limitations to the context, then for it to be “proven”, the situation should be that anyone playing Protoss can defeat anyone player another race, regardless of the non-protoss race, map, strategies used, skill levels of the players…
So no, “proving” is not something that can be done.
A “statistical tendency” may be “observed” at best, and even then, there would probably be so much context omission in most attempts that it would not be a scientifically or seriously acceptable conclusion.
Need to change the statement or the context or both.
You are arguing against someone who is playing devils advocate, you cant ever win on his terms no matter how the truth would be clear.
Just wanna ask, what sc2 statistics do you respect?
Im not a statistician. With someone else I said look at 2019 , 2020 protoss representation in playoffs major events. It was not lacking yet PPP claim protoss hasn’t won a thing because… I tell u because not good enough toss players. But good enough to spam playoffs not good enough to beat the single best Z and T players. Cheesers only do so much
is protoss op?
on commercial lvl, no. But there is still something wrong with Protoss.
Since 2018 until now the toss presence in GM became bigger and bigger up to 45%. on average around 40%. [rankedftw]
https://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=6
It is also addressed in the PylonShowEp139.
https://youtu.be/k4f-4MuKGzA?t=4557
Even Showtime agrees here, even if it hurts him: “toss is easier”. BigGabe, Lambo and Showtime all say that but at the highest lvl it’s even. BigGabe also said in a bestof 3/5 it feels different.
Generally what I’ve heard from interviews is the most common statement: too much toss in the ladder plus the fact that it’s turtle games 30+min. That’s why many professional players don’t want to play ladder.
myself i think it’s more a few design things. example: SB it helped in PvP, according to toss players. Vs T/Z it is primarily used for cheese and turtle.
From a zerg perspective, I find the match up more frustrating than a balance problem.
but I find it fascinating that you try to “discuss” with DropoutWings.
You forget main sb role home defence
Still waiting on an answer from the original poster. If it isn’t considered “proof” to show that the number of wins is not the definition of “balanced” as per the dictionary, then you need to be put on some crazy pills.
This debate is over.
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IF wings were intellectually honest enough to at least admit that Protoss is the easiest race, but that at the highest levels, things are far more even; then we might be able to have an ounce of discussion.
Instead, the little girl goes and creates a topic “Prove:…” only to deny any relevance to any statistic given, any credibility to the opinion of any pro given, and try to insult people and play the tough guy, only to ignore and run away like the little coward he is, once he gets called out.
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I am trying to decide if he is just a contrarian troll or if he is legit psycho levels of biased. We’re talking Ted Bundy levels of insane.
Let’s not go too heavily the other direction either. He’s just a guy who’s trying to protect his ego (even though the evidence simply isn’t there) and someone who fell into the trap of feeling invincible behind a keyboard. He’s not a psychopath.
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hy·per·bo·le
noun
- exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
This is a mix of a thought experiment and looking for any real truths. There has just been too much unfair crying recently IMO, so I want people to back up their reasons why they feel a certain way. This can be done through large samples, case studies, unit interactions, resource theory, etc. I mostly just want people to think about why they are crying and whether it’s an emotional reaction or genuine belief grounded in reality.
If you take a sample from the ladder population via API request or looking at Aligulac or rankedftw, that’s acceptable. If you find some other way to get large ladder data, let me know. If there’s ways to pick up large groupings of tournament data, show me that too.
Protoss throughout 2019 and some of 2020 and maybe 2018 has been consistently underperforming against Zerg according to Aligulac. At times, there were quite the margin. Looking at tournaments in general, I hear Protoss was also consistently underperforming (Zerg was dominating once again). When I watch pro games, I tended to see Protoss players get wrecked in the late game even when they were ahead. Protoss players were essentially forced into the adept strategy, which was easily countered by the Zerg player, because even when the Zerg player was supposed to be receiving pressure, they could dictate the pacing of the entire game. Of course, the only time this wasn’t the case was if Protoss was cannon rushing. There were strong indicators left and right that Protoss was limited against Zerg in 2019.
I’ve already mentioned this many times but long story short GM ladder is a joke.
This is a design complaint and not a balance one. I don’t think anyone likes facing any kind of turtling from any race - that’s why brood lords and infestors got nerfed.
You insult me but you hardly make coherent sentences and your thoughts string along very poorly. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, though this is in a different sense than BatZ and the select few other crazy people. You are just lost. Exit’s on the left.
I have said this many times - Protoss is the easiest race to play. By how much is debatable. Things at the highest level are relatively even in the present state. You people are the only ones twisting my words because you live in a delusional reality. This would be like me mixing you up with BatZ because you both are so messed up in the head that not a single word that comes out of your mouths is anything productive whatsoever. Like I said, leave my thread if you have nothing better to say. Neither one of you have brought up a SINGLE point, and I have shut down every single one of yours except for the one BatZ keeps bringing up that I ignore because he won’t answer my question. Proof of this has been linked over and over again, so I will not repeat myself to those who do not know how to read. You guys have had your time to speak respectfully and repeatedly fail over and over again - because you are manchildren incapable of proper discussion.
The conclusion is obvious: there’s a select few crazy people here that have NO IDEA what they are talking about. And there’s a handful of people who are lost and need assistance in forming their own opinions about the game.
I have faith that the people in the handful category will at least snap out of following the footsteps of insane people and be able to form their own opinions rather than follow the homeless guy on the street shouting about the second coming of Christ.
Make me, princess.
Aligulac data…
Ladder distributions.
Premier Tournaments
Major “”
Minor “”
Pro player opinions
h ttps://streamable.com/02tkjo
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSGAQpSJjKc
Can’t wait to hear how none of these are credible
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