More Units to Commanders?

Co-op Missions Discussion
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Every commander has a select few units and it is completely valid to limit the player on building all units as commanders need to complement eachother.

However, I have often asked myself. What if some units were added to certain Commanders. With the ability to replay commanders from 1-15 again, I sometimes wished some commanders got some of the units that it has baseline in Melee Mode too.

Given that recently some new difficulties were added and the AI overall has been improved how about this:

Raynor:

I think Raynor would be very well served with at least 1 spellcaster. It’s completely lacking in this department.
Ghosts would be my choice given that Raynor is very heavy on Infantry.

Kerrigan:

Kerrigan is okay generally and heavily reliant on her Hero Unit, but a spellcaster wouldn’t be out of place either. Adding in an Infestor or Roach would be lovely

Artanis:

In general it’s a shame how he lacks a Sentry. I think adding in the Sentry fills in the Gateway as a standard Melee Protoss nicely.
It would also be nice to give Shield battery to Artanis, given how it’s become a standard defense structure for Protoss in Melee.

Swann:

Swann could really use another aircraft. The Viking would in my opinion be the perfect mech unit added to his starport, given that it can switch between ground mech and air mech.

Zagara:

A commander with very few units and they are all generally low tech and throwaway. Perhaps granting Zagara Hydralisks or Infestors with infested terrans would be nice.

Vorazun:
Similar to Artanis, giving Vorazun a sentry (while not really part of the Nerazim theme) would add to the Gateway. Other options could be to add the Robotics Bay and allow Dark Templar to build Annihilators, though this might make it too much like Zeratul

Karax:

In my opinion, Karax primarily lacks a Stalker-equivalent. Giving him a Campaign adept with air attacks or a stalker or dragoon would be nice

Abathur:

Abathur has one of the best unit options and I find it hard to come up with something for him

Alarak:

Giving Alarak the Taldarim Bloodhunter from the Campaign would be really cool given that Alarak has it’s air disabled, so not having a Dark Templar equivalent is kinda weird.

Nova:

For me, playing Nova I generally rely a lot on the Raven, it’s healing and damage potential is very useful. But perhaps Nova could receive early game Medic Squad to help out and keep early Marines alive.

Stukov:

How the heck does Stukov not have Infestors? It’s the infested Terran race. Let’s fix it.

Fenix:

Giving Fenix a Warp-Prism and Shield Battery would nicely fill in his needs, then his sentry can be given Shield Recover or Forcefield.

All commanders afterwards are harder to say what they should get because they already have quite a few units, more than the old commanders generally got.

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I’d put Alarak on priority seeing how limited his options are. I’d give him a Archon or something to tank his mech army (so you don’t have to rely on Alarak and supplicants for that, opening the path for other playstyles).

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I disagree with most of the stuff, but since prestige was introduced, but I’m gonna break it down for said commanders.

Raynor, what prevents him from losing his marine army to storms and splash dmg overall are his mech units and calldowns, I do like ghosts, but at this point might as well unlock medivac and liberators.

Kerrigan, man, if queens could properly walk off-creep, She and Zagara would be way more powerfull commanders, you can have them on the field but spreading creep isn’t that much rewarding as I wished to, especially on agressive maps, if she needs spellcaster, buffing queens is a good start.

Artanis, some months ago I believe there was a thread about this, but instead of sentry, it would be Arbiter to fill up the role of mid-late game mobility, well, Prestige 2 already does that role now. Also, high templars, especially on P1 or P2 already fills the role of shield healer.

Swann, I disagree with viking since goliath with upgrades already fills the same role, but wraiths as the only offensive air unit is quite meh, wished there were Valkyries for the splash dmg vs air, Thors are not good as anti-air except of the multiplayer variant.

Zagara, same as Kerrigan, however in her case, Defiler would be insane.

Karax, would be a complete yes if Prestige 2 didn’t existed, mirages, spear of adun and shadow cannon imortals fills the role for anti-air.

Alarak, yes, he lacks air units, not really bloodhunters unless they’re completelly different from lotv, as Vorazun’s dark templars already has the same abilities.

Nova, nah, units are not the problem with her I’m afraid, her Ravens and mastery already fills the healing role.

Fenix, I’d say, buff his disruptors, his conservators are fine, but disruptors is worse than colossus+dragoon fenix.

Stukov, definitelly my first impression when I saw brood queens, the infested can tank enough that the infestor could steal a few units, I would not mind if they added it in, don’t get me wrong tho, brood queens are good spellcasters.

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I honestly think Karax should get Instigators (Purifier Stalkers). Having basic anti air that doesn’t require teching up or forcing you to use your top bar would be nice.

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I feel the perspective here is different.

I think its fine having a few units overlap a little bit, if they allow for different compositions.

Or if a certain commander has a weakness.

Artanis being slow is sorta the typical protoss way.

But adding in the sentry fills his role as overall kalai protoss more.

With nova the healing is something that annoys me, because Raven is too good. It serves the healing, aoe, damage etc.

If medics were added, nova rushing starport and raven isnt the only option any longer as bio + hellbats become possible.

Having two casters might be too much for Stukov, but there are more commanders who have it.

Bloodhunters being made better compared to what the campaign offers is fine, but its more the fantasy of the taldarim commander. Maybe allowing them to kill supplicants for increased power. Lol.

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Swann’s Wraiths already fill the anti-armour anti-air role, so Vikings would be superfluous. Also, Raynor already uses Vikings. I think Liberators would be a much better choice, considering no commander utilizes basic Liberators, and no future commander is likely to either.

Both Kerrigan and Zagara lack a dedicated caster. Kerrigan could be given Infestors, while Zagara could receive Defilers (whose abilities synergize well with her army).

This is an interesting idea. Nobody uses the default Ghosts (nor are any future commanders likely to), so I could see this being a possibility, although they’re not exactly part of Raynor’s conventional “package”.

Raynor’s Ghost Academies would obviously not appear from the start, nor would they be limited to 1; they would function like versus Ghost Academies and Mengsk’s Royal Academies. There’d have to be a decision made as to whether Raynor’s Ghosts would be able to call down nukes, like Mengsk’s, or whether they’d lack the ability like Nova’s.

Fenix’s Conservators could justifiably be given either of those abilities without losing their power field functionality.

I agree. If Alarak were to get Blood Hunters, they should definitely synergize with Alarak or his Supplicants in some way. I like the idea that they could sacrifice Supplicants for a temporary boost; perhaps they could also gain combat power from being in proximity to Alarak, allowing them to function as frontline beaters when not being used for assassinry.

If Stukov had Infestors, it would be interesting if they could eat and store Infested Civilians and Infested Marines, then later on lob them at the enemy. Perhaps the lobbed infested could gain a temporary boost to attack speed. This would be a good lore-related modification that would synergize well with Stukov’s army.

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Raynor already gets one of the best spells in the game (Yamato Cannon) for objectives and priority targets like dominators and battlecruisers. Bioball gets heal and stimpack. Gving him ghosts/nukes on top of all that would spread him a bit too thin I’d say, there’s enough design space there for a new commander (e.g. Tosh/Stone) or maybe a Mengsk prestige. Ghosts also don’t really fit Raynor lorewise, black ops isn’t his style.

I agree with Artanis or Fenix getting shield batteries though.

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I’m surprised Stukov doesn’t get Aberrations. Technically, they are Infested. I think he even had them in the Campaign during the Invasion of Korhal. It’d be nice to have them and they’d still fit his theme.

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This could actually work. Most often there isn’t overlap between commander units, but there are some exceptions: Raynor and Swann both use Siege Tanks with the same stats and the same appearance (although with different upgrades). Aberrations would be good support for Infested Colonists, much in the way Zagara’s Aberrations support her mass Zerglings and Banelings. (This would also provide an excuse to give Zagara a Leviathan Brood Aberration skin, so that her Aberrations and Stukov’s would have different appearances.)

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I always end up imagining Swann getting standard issue Liberators, since he is a perfect fit for them, filling out his lackluster Starport unit options.

Since they provide splashing air, that’s one plus, and since they are basically floating turrets or floating siege tanks, they fit Swann thematically rather cleanly.

To top it off, they gave him Cyclones, so it really makes sense for him to also have the other new-fangled (at the time) LOTV unit in his roster. It always nags at me that he just doesn’t have Liberators, when they fit so well in his arsenal.

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Respectfully, I think I disagree with most of your ideas, but I agree that some
Commanders have gaps.

The main offenders in my humble opinion:

Zagara- she is just quite a bit too threadbare on units. I strongly suggest brood queen be taken from Stukov, where it never made sense, and given to Zagara. Give her an aerial unit with some more gameplay, and a caster. Also potentially viper but queen is the right choice.
I’d also love to see a prestige where hunter killers or roaches could be changed from an ability to a producible unit, perhaps as corpsers, but whatever.

Stukov- as mentioned above, queens shouldn’t be in his army. Instead, give the P2 transport/launch mechanic baseline to liberators. Make a new P2 where Stu is on the field as campaign hero unit.
Banshees already have 2 active abilities and specialize in attacking ground, so it feels redundant, and liberators are just attack-move passive units right now and feel very flat and under-animated.
Also give him infestors at barracks, once you build an armory. They could spawn troopers, fungal and burrow. Maybe mind control but whatever. Tech lab would have more than 2 upgrade, barracks more than 1 unit.
Also- explosive civilians % spawn chance should be baseline. Mastery could
Increase it.

Abathur- Vipers feel a bit much after mutalisks, guardians, devourers AND leviathan. Vipers could have a home in zag’s army, which would give her an infestation pit to make her building more interesting. Or Kerrigan, who just has the two air units.
Thematically, swarm queens seem like they should be in Kerrigan’s army, but I see how they are filling early AA niche for abba.

Stetman is in a good spot.

Dehaka is perfect and needs nothing.

Raynor is fine.

Swann is fine. Though the point about missing an air unit is real. I think give a light/medium turret to his giant transports and make them a multipurpose transport/flagship to be escorted by wraiths would be cool. Kind of like how you can fake an air Alarak with mass war prisms. Maybe the turrets could ramp up the more units being carried like with Stu’s bunkers.

Nova is in a very good place already.

H&H is fine.

Tychus is one of the most brilliantly designed commanders, and I’m still blown away by how much depth of overlapping strategy the outlaws provide, like how blaze can reveal cloaked units with his oil or you can get turret guy if you don’t want to get a fixer for Vision, etc.
I would love to see one or two more added, maybe a Hellion hero who can transform into a hellbat (but with some other kind of attack to not compete with blaze’s role), a wraith pilot or other air unit, or a hero Vulture who can place widow mines or something.

Mengsk is great.

Artanis is fine. His pheonix should have been scouts but too late I guess.

Vorazun is awesome, she’s really in a good spot. I see the case for the nerazim immortals, but with the shadow cannon ability on karax and the air attack of zeratul, I see no need to give her a robo bay.

Karax- I like the idea of him having the purifier stalkers, whatever they’re called. Using energizers for anti air sucks.
His colossi need some distinction from fenix.

Alarak- he’s awesome. I love that he has a unique basic infantry. I love that war prism have an attack that even gets forge upgrades. Never change this. His slayers need to use the skin pack visual, they look crappy as is.

Fenix- he’s in a great place.

Zeratul- I love this guy but he just has that Zagara style 65% unit availability feeling that Just isn’t working. I think he needs a basic infantry unit, an air unit or two, or something. I get he has many units through his calldowns, And also can actively move his towers, and that makes him have depth.
But I dunno.

Who did I forget?

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I’m not so convinced of this. I think there’s a couple of commanders that could use some tweaking, but adding so many units to co-op…not so much.

The commanders I would focus on is the commanders that have little or no options in army composition. It’s usually because they have one unit that is good enough to not be worth deviating from - in which case some of their other units should be adjusted to be more appealing. Alternatively, all-purpose units should be shied away from, design-wise, to encourage using different units for different enemy comps.

Off the top of my head, Swann and HH are two of the biggest offenders. A Swann player can easily get by making nothing but goliaths and science vessels, and situationally using siege tanks. Mass thor or wraith can also work, but it’s mostly worse than using goliaths and is only done to switch things up.

HH has a known reaper “problem.” Problem in the sense that there’s even less reason to make anything but reapers than Swann has to make anything but goliaths. That’s not great design.

The commander I most think could use more variety is Alarak. He has near-Zagara levels of unit options, and it’s a bit painful (I’ll note that I love Zagara and her lack of units actually works just fine with her play style). But Alarak really needs starport units.

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I don’t think Raynor needs Ghost or else he’ll be nuke capable, which requires more balancing. He already has most of the Terran bio in his roster, so he’s good.

I think Artanis already has a good set of Gateway units. The guardian shell sort of acts like the support for his combat units.

This I agree. He needs another combat capable aircraft.

Hmmm vikings are already used by Mengsk, Raynor and HH. Liberators are only used by Nova and Stu. Maybe Liberators?

On another thread, it was suggested we militarized Hercules. Maybe increase its HP and put some cannons on it.

Karax’s immortals’ can already shoot air units and they can tank.

If we put medics into Nova’s roster, they will be elite medics, almost as good as Nikara. If we do that we should remove healing from her Ravens, which requires more balancing.

I know we feel the need to give Fenix a heal but part of his play-style is to have his units (semi-heroes) die. His hero dying gives the next shell a buff.

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Immortals aren’t a basic/early unit. Plus, Shadow Cannon is a spell; so, you have to direct your Immortals to attack air. Meaning micromanaging the Shadow Cannons. Having Stalkers means that if you have them back at your base and a wave of transports coming in you don’t have to manually attack air. They’ll attack the transports on their own.

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I agree, it was a crime to not give stukov infestors.

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I disagree. What stops Raynor from losing units is his Medic. 25% damage reduction on top of fast healing is no joke.
Those call-down does help soften Amon force but they are just minor player compare to the all mighty upgraded medic.
In fact, majority of the loss that Raynor suffer come from the fact that each of his combat units didn’t get their personal medic or their medic is out of energy.

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Yes I know about shadow cannon being a skill. It’s just like BC’s Yamatos, hit F2, tab to your BCs or immortals and use skills. If that doesn’t kill your waves or u miss click, u can always use orbital strikes. Given it is an air comp you’ll probably do immortal / carrier built, so your immortals are not alone.

Stalkers are quite weak in terms of dps / survivability. Also Stalkers is more along the lines with DT commanders like Zeratul and Vorazun. Maybe Dragoons may be a better pick for Karax.

For early waves, you can supplement your sentinels with orbital strikes until you can get your immortals, colossuses, carrier or whatever combination you choose.

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The point I was trying to make was you wouldn’t need to babysit your immortals.

As Karax is (somewhat) focused on Purifier units; a Purifier Stalker fits Karax’s theme better than a Dragoon.

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Some great feedback here.

While I generally have outlined some ideas, there were great ideas such as a swann liberator.

The deal with Karax is early antiair. The problem he has is all his antiair is further down and harder to build quickly, while for example gateway can be warped in.

Perhaps if we made Karax truly unique it could be an option to remove warpgates from him.

In regards to purifier stalker or dragoon. Perhaps a purifier skin for dragoon would be cool for Karax as I feel he is more in line with khalai units, with augmented purifier.

I do however not wanna create too much solutions to commander design. The design should have some weaknesses, but they should not be too severe.

You dont want commanders to be crap at detection and then get stomped by banshee and dts or a commander with no air units and thus always weak to air to ground or ground to ground.

Its that issue that makes alarak kinda weak as he has only 1 flying unit thus any anti ground makes him weaker.

A Bloodhunter DT for him would just be flavor. Much like many other units here.

For some its more about timing and less reliance on a single unit, like Nova and Ravens. Getting good medics with abilities like in Brood war (how the heck does no medic have UED spells), would be interesting.

The defiler for zagara is a much better choice than my infestor suggestion.

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Ive always wanted Zagara to have the Kaboomers we see on Dead of Night as part of her own army.

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