More Units to Commanders?

Co-op Missions Discussion
21

Adding a purifier stalker to Karax could work, but I don’t see a reason for him to specifically have it. He is Khalai, using technology from the Purifier, Nerazim and Aiur factions, he’s not supposed to have the remaining purifier units.

Second, he is supposed to be gimmicky up to a certain extent, and giving him such a convenient unit will just undermine all of the rest of his kit, which already has issues (what’s the point of carriers and mirages again?).

Let’s start with the main issue: Karax anti-air is garbage?

Technically, Karax has the best anti-air in the game: Energizers. They ARE his gateway anti-air, and has always been. Reclamation is broken, can be rapid-fired without waste taking over all the air enemy units instantly. Its so easy to play against Air Toss with them that its just hilarious to watch. But even this thing has issues:

  1. Cooldown can be too long to be reliable enough.
  2. Range is too short to be reliable enough.
  3. Does not work on Zerg.

3 is where the problem really lies. This is where suddenly Karax has no anti-air in the gateway. An entire race makes the commander’s design fall apart. Now, you could add a Stalker just to deal with zerg, or you could:

  • Reduce Mirage gas cost by 50 and Unify Fleet Beacon and Robotics Bay.
    OR
  • Increase energizer’s damage against biological units by 30.

These two options would allow Karax to either use Mirages more efficiently with a mixed composition of other units, or also use the energizer to deal with air zerg properly.

Or you can just play Templar Apparent and forget everything I’ve said.

5 Likes
22

For Karax anti air, I would

  1. give his probes a build range of 500 (if you have vision, minerals, and buildable terrain you can get cannons there)

  2. change “Phasing Armor” to “Phasing Systems” and have it also make Mirage attacks permanently ignore armor (in addition to temporary invulnerability)

23

For some reason SC2 devs are very against adding more units to existing SC2 commanders, even if those units are already in the game.

For example i would love if Raynor had Ravens so you actually have some fun casters to use, not to mention an easy detection unit.

Zagara could also use more units considering that she has the least variety.
Alarak could definitely use more units - some proper air units or a new mech unit to give more variety to his mech builds.

24

Raynor’s medics are strong but that won’t stop multiple storms from killing ur marines. Waves come with multiple siege tanks, high templars, etc they will kill ur marines 50+ hp regardless. That’s why u supplement ur marines with mechs (siege tanks or Vikings), they prevent ur marines from getting wipe, prestige 2.

One of the purpose of using Hyperion or Dusk Wings is to halt advancing waves to buy u time to replenish ur army or prevent more of ur marines from getting kill. Playing Raynor without his call downs is a lot tougher.

You should have at most 4 to 1 ratio combat units to medics. Not all ur units will be at the front lines so u don’t need 1 to 1 or 2 to 1. U also have mastery to have medics heal two units at a time.

If u have too many medics out, ur combat units will die off then u r left with medics only. Raynor’s game play mentality is u kill ur enemy first before they wipe ur army. And it is easy for Raynor’s army to get wipe.

25

Storm doesn’t stack. Marine with medic actually out heal the storm dmg until the medic die or out of energy. Also, marine get a bunch of hp buff so his HP is around 90 at least. Seige tank can one shot, I agree but that is only if two or more focus on a single spot.

Have you ever try playing Raynor at all? Raynor doesn’t “Mix” his mech with his Bio. he might “Mix” some BC into his army for single target burst but that’s it. Mixing Mech into his Bio actually mess his army up more.

The ratios might not be 1 on 1 but it is close. Raynor marines are special, so they usually stim forward and everyone takes damage. Mastery only increases the medic target number. It doesn’t increase Medic energy restoration and your unit will die when medic stop healing.

This feel like you haven’t play Raynor, or you are new at Raynor. If your medics are healing your unit, they won’t die unless it is a high single target dmg like Yamato or just broken AoE like Disruptor/mine. Hell, you can actually survive it if your marine is being healed by your medic.
I think you are underestimating the “25% dmg reduction while healing” a little too much. I think you need to visit Tychus Lone Wolf to see how tanky he is with “50% dmg reduction without healing”. “25% dmg reduction while healing” feel a little weaker than Tychus Lone Wolf but it is close due to the healing you receive.

26

You can but it is definitelly more APM intensive, not for everyone, but you can use vikings or banshees as well.
Tanks I don’t like very much unless dealing with attack wave or defensive maps, mostly because it makes so that I have to bring the enemy towards the tank range while attacking, which kinda takes away the point of abusing bioball, at least banshees or BCs I can kill whatever that has splash, more so with prestige 2.

27

Only Prestige 1 marines has 90+hp or more, not for other prestiges. Prestige 1 are for people who are new to Raynor or those who doesn’t want to macro or haven’t learn how to Marco Raynor.

I am talking about 50+hp marine, not other units. That’s what RynerBr was talking about. Ur 50hp+ marines your will die to multiple splash and non-splash damage regardless if u have a medic or not. Do u think the high templars are alone, they are not.

You should be open to other builds rather than criticizing it. P0 and P2 Raynor are best with Mech mixed bio build. Your mech units depend on the gas u harvest, then what are u going to do with all those mineral u harvested? U use them as mineral dump on marines.

If u go bio build, without prestige 1, against high templar or siege tank enemy waves, ur bio will get shredded with or without medics. U need to support ur build with mechs.

Medic mastery enable healing on second target and increases the heal percentage on a second target.

While this is true (especially in malware), watching your tanks shoot like marines is a lot of fun.

Rather than just addressing my arguments, U went for personal attacks, good job.

28

Well, I guess (technically) Zweihaka is (somewhat) a new unit for Dehaka. Granted it’s just another Dehaka with a different skin; but it is an addition.

29
  • Raynor is more or less an autoattack powerhouse, using Orbital commands as his “caster” at most, but only needing MMM, siege tanks, spider mines, or mass air. Casters not really necessary.
  • Kerrigan IS the caster. Enough said. And Infestor/Roach would step on Egon and Abathur’s toes.
  • With I’m Artanis, I was miff he didn’t get sentry either, but he already has shields, guardian shells, HT recharge via storm, and shield overcharges…and Karax also holds Shield batteries in high regard as a defense specialist, so I would say keep as is.
  • Swann doesn’t need aircraft (the Wraith was just to give him some combat air), he already has tanks, goliaths, and Thor and his brothers from other mothers.
  • Zagara would just use Scourges for kamikaze, and corruptors for something more persistent. Zagara already poops out Hydras and banes, so giving her either or is…meh.
  • The only Robotic unit the Nerazim had were annihilators. No need to loan her Robotic support, since she already has Dark Archons and better Dark Templar.
  • Fenix already has the campaign adept, and Karax rains death, fire, and LOLs from above, so beside Energizers, Shadow cannons, and Carriers/Mirages, I’d say he’s fine on mobile AA. I’d like to change his Immortals into Annihilators, though…
  • Abathur: One less thing for me to talk about.
  • Alarak: Wouldn’t that argument be the same with Artanis lacking a Dark Templar (Avenger)? Beside, Stasis Prison is already used by Vorazun’s DT.
  • Nova: Just use shield drone until you can get points into regen, or have a medic ally like Raynor. Also, Nova never got medics beyond a reward for a bonus objective.
  • Because Stukov has nowhere to make Infestors and whatever infestors can do already overlaps with Stukov in general (infested swarms, infesting buildings, etc)
  • Maybe, but Fenix’s Arbiter option has warp ( defeating Warp Prism), and his main units benefit from dying.

Overall, Most of your concerns can be assuaged by your partner or are not needed as desperately as you imply/think. I’d say let’s focus on getting more commanders than shoehorning new units into the older ones.

I want to get Posh Tosh before he gets sloshed at mosh, oh Gosh.

1 Like
30

1/ The enemy focus fire is garbage.
2/ It will never be pure marine.
3/ You never stand inside the storm for too long with that movement speed. Even if you do, medic will still out heal the storm and with that attack speed, the Bio will delete the enemy before they even suffer casualty.

Yea sure, marine cannot survive with a 68 hp pool and that much focus attack on it but most of the time, the enemy will focus on Firebat or marauder. Even if the HT have the best storm, the marine still won’t die because the enemies focus fire on front liner like marauder or Firebat. With medic out heal the storm, the marine won’t die to HT.

But that’s beside the point, your point is that call down is how Raynor army survive/ get tankier. You haven’t give a single fact that let us see how his call down is better than his medic. So far, you only prove my point by saying that the unit with the least HP pool can’t survive even with medic. i mean, why do you even think that “it take multiple AoE with enemies attack to kill a marine with pocket medic” gonna prove your point?

31

That was my point.

You went off on a tangent and talked about other units like BCs and Tychus.

I was responding to this:

You disagreed on “what prevents him from losing his marine army to storms and splash dmg overall are his mech units and calldowns”

Then I talked about how mechs and call downs helps your combat units, marines. Medic can only do so much. Yes that 25% dmg reduction is great but it is better for high HP units.

You can use Hyperion to clear most enemy waves, so your army don’t have to engage it. Your dusk wings can slow down some large enemy waves. This gives you time to replenish and ur units don’t have to die.

That’s what RynerBr was talking about.

In summary, most Raynor’s units will die easy, the key to playing him is how fast you are able to replenish. And no I am not new to Raynor.

32

It would be nice, but I feel it’s not, necessary. His spiel is to use his SoA as an AA supplement. He’s the only Protoss CO who doesn’t have a Dragoon/Stalker/Adept/Slayer/X’N Ambusher equivalent, and that truly sets him apart from the rest.

On a related note, it would feel like the following buffs:
–Nova can build more than one of the same production building
Yes, her production building running on charges and cd does mean you need to be careful with her units. Use her other tools (snipe, sab. drone, airstrike, etc.), but it would be nice to quickly replenish your army if something goes south.

–HH getting an anti-ground tower
Yes, they have Mag Mines. Supply depots have double hp, Widow Mines no longer cost gas, and SFP (strike fighter platforms) can be used for both offense and defense. However, it’d be nice to have even something basic that’s more “set and forget”

–Zagara has permanent units that can do AG and AA.
Only 4 things can do both… Zagara herself, her summoned HKs, Queens, and Bile Launchers. Her units are too specialized in terms of only attack air or ground

–Raynor gets a Science Vessel
OC scans are supposed to fill the void for mobile detection. But it’d be nice to have that extra choice. Also, his P1 doesn’t have MULES, so that would’ve complimented that nicely.

–Zagara and Kerrigan can fast track regenerate
1 minute isn’t long, but it’s still enough to mean certain death. The answer would be “for the love of goodness, don’t let them die”, but they’re quite too core to their respective COs.

33

Would be cool if when you have 2 maxed out Ascendants you could fuse them together to create some godly powerful Tal’Darim Archon, maybe call it a Transcendent Archon

34

It disturbs me that they are so powerful, it takes me out of the game, they are surpassing the purifiers that are superhuman and the terran special forces I think they need some newbies in the devils of heaven more mercenaries units

1 Like
35

At the end of a match with Stettman; he mentions he’ll reward Gary with a new friend; “Gretta”. I’d like her to be added as a Prestige.

36

Broodsister? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

37

I don’t think the OP has said that his suggestions are needed, desperately or otherwise. He’s just playing with ideas that he’d like.

To the idea in general, I and others see it as generally ‘out of scope’ for future patches and would prefer new commanders and maps. But that doesn’t mean I haven’t thought about it sometimes, so I can play along. Note in the below that I’m unapologetically looking at ideas for new variant unit types, not just adding unused versus/campaign unit types.

Raynor: The manual cast ‘Snipe’ part of a Ghost’s kit would fit reasonably well, increasing Raynor’s infantry diversity. But EMP and nukes don’t fit into his playstyle for me. Something I think might be fun and fit a bit better would be Dropships. Not Hercules-spec (normal capacity, no teleport) but decently fast. Key bit that could make it interesting would be some kind of survivability buff (temp shield) to recently dropped units. Would open up a playstyle of doom drops and paying a ‘Dropship tax’ to improve your unit retention. Tankivac never ever going to be Swann level, which is for the best.

Kerrigan: Thing with Kerrigan is her army has a certain vision to it – the fierce, aggressive and vast sides of the Swarm. Infestors, Roaches, Corruptors, Swarm Hosts… just don’t fit that vision, for me. If she got a new unit, a Devourer variant would be nice. Shoring up her anti-air would help P0 vs P2/P3, and the variant could be given some minor spellcasting (say the unused Leviathan Bio-Stasis to make it a disabler).

Artanis: nah, adding anything would take away.

Swann: the Liberator suggestion in the thread is actually kinda’ interesting.

Zagara: Hydralisks and Infested Terran access would be counter to her gameplay vision of severely limiting her access to units that can hit both ground and air. I’d be up for a spellcaster though. Probably a bespoke Infestor designed to play a support role (not a summoner). Microbial Shroud’s name/look could be reused for a ‘lifesteal aura’… it’s a shame, Fungal Growth and Spawn Broodling would both be interesting in her kit, but that’s stealing too much from Stukov.

Vorazun: difficult. The most interesting angle for a new unit for her would be a ‘tempo increaser’, something that can help her make the best of early Centurions and Stalkers. I’m not sure what that is. A Nerazim Sentry feels weird, but the fact that Sentries are classically a low tech spellcaster ‘bandaid’ fixing early game issues does suggest it might fit. And I’m imagining that the actual abilities could be totally bespoke. So hey, maybe. Use the old Nullifier name and give it unique abilities and it could be a goer. Fitting that name and helping early game tempo would mean stuff like single-target disables (include structures: problem is it steps on Void Stasis), or high micro ways to reduce damage taken (maybe a single target manual cast damage reduction?)

Karax: Strongly feel that a solid all-round Stalker variant would mess with Karax’s gameplay. An anti-biological, focused anti-air ground unit would be much more okay though. So… heavily variant-up the Stalker model into something new?

Abathur: yep, no need.

Alarak: Alarak… ugh. Design-wise I struggle with him a lot. Blood Hunters’ design space has been used by Vorazun’s Dark Templar. And honestly, Tal’darim units are generally a mess. Copy-pasted existing units with variant mechanics, but most (outside Alarak/Ascendant/Supplicant) don’t fit into a cohesive fantasy. He is most in ‘need’ of more units, potentially plural, but… ugh. It’s a bigger task.

Nova: I don’t really like the idea of Medics for her. She’s kind of perfect as-is. If anything, look at sharpening the role of her Marauders and the age-old problem that Hellions are worthless.

More maybe later.

3 Likes
38

Ghosts also don’t really fit well with Raynor in general, given that Raynor and his Raiders canonly made use of Spectre technology (and obviously we won’t get to play with those until Tosh).

I have always liked the idea of Defilers being added to Zagara’s roster, giving her an actual spellcaster unit aside from the hero. They also fit well with her design, with potential ideas on adding new effects to Defiler’s spells, Dark Swarm and Plague. In particular, I was always fond of the idea of a research that would let you cast Plague on your own expendable units, turning them into carriers that can spread Plague to nearby enemy units on death. It would be almost like the Black Death mutator in reverse.

That fact that it brings back a classic Brood War unit is a nice bonus~

3 Likes
39

Yeah, also very true! Both Ghosts and Spectres deserve more focus, too. Ghosts have Nova, Spectres deserve Tosh.

Yeah, only reason I didn’t think Defiler rather than bespoke Infestor is just that Defilers are so cool that I’d kinda’ like to see them get more focus in a new commander. Also was worried that the classic Dark Swarm would be broken offensively in Zagara’s hands, and better for her would be a more supportive caster with more defensive uses.

Don’t have a good feel for Plague in Co-op. Like would you poke late game bases with it to weaken enemies, is that the main use? It drains HP very slowly for Co-op unless you’re using it on a position you wont’ be attacking for a few minutes, right?

2 Likes
40

The only commander that I would like devs to revisit and give more units is Alarak, to make air units buildable.
And may be Swann, he was pretty excited to have diamondbacks in campaign, so may be give him them in co-op :smiley: