Protoss is insanely broken and has been for years. It has been known for years. Now imagine a world where the devs decided to BUFF that race. That would be complete insanity, wouldn’t it?
GSL is again a great exemple of how insanely broken the race is. Just wished they would nerf storm, disruptor, colossi, stalkers and carriers so the game is finally playable for the other races…
have you actually look at the GSL wins? it is consistently zerg and terran.
thats the problem, he is a terran dude, thats theyre point of view since forever, evem when this game is terrancraft 2 for years
Always the same my friend lol …
Protoss crybabies are getting what they want after constant whines …
PLaying the easiest race in teh game will never be enough for them, they pushing
the limit over and over eventhough terran are dropping like flies against protiss and zerg …
Toss has been buffed to the moon in an attempt to make a protoss win a premier. First it was zergs job to be nerfed, but eventually they conceded serral was just OP. Cant nerf zerg anymore, it would literally delete them from GM. Only other option is to nerf terran. This is affirmative action style thinking applied to esports. They can’t accept that there is a higher talent peak in the zerg and terran population. Statistically, it’s highly likely to have a higher talent peak in one of the groups. They are learning in real time exactly why affirmative action fails. Nerfing zerg didn’t help protoss to win a premier, but it did make zerg unplayable for everyone below serral. In order to avoid discrimination against protoss professionals, they effectively discriminated against every zerg on the ladder. Not only did they do the thing they were trying to fix, aka they used discrimination to counter discrimination, they weren’t even effective at making protoss win a premier. They created two issues out of one. You cannot fix an issue that happens on a personal level using systemic reform. That’s the moral of the lesson. The system doesn’t fix the individual, the individual fixes the system by fixing himself. All it takes to fix the issue is 1 protoss the same skill level as serral. That’s it. Not a systemic issue.
Zerg and especially terran players are known by everyone to be exponentially more skilled than protoss players. Considering how much harder our race is and how much better we are (especially Maru), terran players should win most tournaments. In fact, since Maru is objectively the strongest RTS player of all time, maru should almost never lose a Bo5. Whenever he loses, there’s a massive imbalance.
It’s because balancing is focused around the very top players, and for those top players, Protoss has not been doing well. Among the top 8 players of each race, the win rates were around 40% for Protoss in both non-mirror match ups, even if you excluded Maru/Serral/HerO as outliers.
Another part of the reason is that the balance council said it doesn’t want to make major changes (though what they did with the cyclone runs a bit counter to that stated philosophy), so they probably haven’t been willing to look at deeper changes that could probably better address some design issues that are causing Protoss to overperform at the lower GM/Masters level, while they struggle at the top.
EG:
If you look at the current dynamics of PvT, the late game very heavily favors the Terran if they can get there without falling too far behind. Skyterran + ghosts is basically impossible for Protoss to fight at all effectively unless the Terran stacks everything and flies into storms. They can chip away a bit with tempests and abuse recall/MS recall for mobility to try and deny bases, but if/when Terran gets the opportunity to commit to a fight, it tends to go extremely heavily into the Terran’s favor; EMP isn’t even necessary for Skyterran to beat Protoss.
In PvZ, getting the right balance of units is harder as Zerg, since they have more specific roles (Corruptors for anti-air, broods/ultras/banes/lings for ground, viper s+ infestors for support), and army control is more difficult due to multiple spellcasters, but if they do manage their composition well and have the army control, it’s a similar situation to PvT, with Zerg being rather dominant in late game fights, if the game reaches that state.
That sort of pigeonholes the Protoss into hitting timings/getting damage done in the early game to try and get a lead and/or trying to throw off compositions with tech switches. Trying to play a more defensive macro-oriented style, which is what generally works best for the very top players, just doesn’t really work well at that level with how Protoss is designed.
Protoss got buffed?
Meanwhile the list of the actual buffs:
Observer
Sentry
Pylon
Meaning:
Sight range Pylon:
??? ok.
sentry rework:
this is great in pvp!
The only real buff for toss was vs toss itself. This is cool, but they need some crucial buffs/reworks.
The actual topic should have been: Terran got nerfed!
Now protoss has finally a chance to play vs terran without getting wrecked by 3 units in 0.002 sec and losing all workers. Thats cool! That should be celebrated.
Meanwhile the cyclone is still design breaking in the sense that it denies almost every cheese/pressure build from any race and akrij build is still viable to a pretty good level up to 5k mmr.
Strongly agreed. Protoss is the easiest race for being the only race with shields, free macro mechanic (chrono boost), having the most number of A-move units and deadly cheesy builds.
Playing Terran or Zerg at least requires some skills.
At this rate, might as well just give Protoss players default win for merely selecting Protoss as their race.
Does it>? I saw Harstemp play proxy tempest witch new cyclone and he wins
If the terran scouts and reacts properly, then its not possible to go proxy void ray let alone proxy tempest.
Is it possible to win sometimes with very unlikely builds? Sure. Is it a good idea to do this more often or does it make it viable? No absolutely not.
I saw harstem doing many completly stupid things. Are they recommended? Nope. Not one bit.
Mm, this post got a bit away from me, sorry. I wanted it to be shorter.
And Terran is the only race with Repair and medivac Heal, Zerg is the only race with native regeneration and Transfuse. Every race has a mechanic for restoring units that are horribly wounded - and I’d argue Protoss actually has the worst one - it only heals 33~50% of the unit’s HP - but it makes up for that by being free per use and decently fast. Medivac Heal is super fast but is gated and technically not free, Repair costs both mining time and resources to do, Transfuse is energy-“expensive” and only actually good for healing units with decent amounts of HP while regeneration over time is garbage for anything besides Zerglings and Banelings - Yes, burrow Roaches and Mutalisks; but those are specific mechanics of those two units so it’s weird.
When you say “free macro mechanic”, should I assume you never noticed how Protoss upgrades and half their tech units take more base time to complete than the closest counterparts on the other two races to specifically make up for the fact that they have Chrono Boost? Or that the Nexus is the worst of the three town halls to construct, since it has to be built on-location (hatch downside) and costs full price (CC downside)?
I’d, personally, argue that Terran has the most A-move friendly unit, and the most egregious early game*, because the Marine is a very ludicrous unit**.
Different races are different! That’s literally the whole point of the game having three races!
* Yes, Photon Cannon rushes are absolutely stupid in the skill-to-beat vs skill-to-execute department, but basically every other form of early rush or cheese that Protoss has is not different from the other factions’. Marines, though? (cont)
** Shoots up, if stimmed competes for highest DPS for the next minutes, is ranged, built from a basic structure … This all basically mandates a heavy armor or splash unit, without considering micro, only Zerg has an answer - Terran and Protoss thus must tech up to either be able to circumvent or slaughter a ball of 20 Marines. This isn’t a bad thing - it means one player is on the gas and another on the brakes, which creates an interesting dynamic in that it creates a clear sub-objective to dismantling the opponent for a victory. It forcibly starts the back-and-forth to have units of disparate power like this; even in the mirror, since it creates a baseline for what to do.
So like, yes, I agree, the cannon rush is stupid, but everything else is just like… StarCraft is not symmetrical and it doesn’t follow the Age of Empires style of faction design. They are completely different and that’s just how it works. Protoss between-battle regeneration is in some ways the strongest, and in other ways is a bit trash.
Anytime I see someone claim a race is easier than the others I get a laugh, each race has it’s easy and tough points. I say that as a rando with the DV portrait, I know my stuff.
https://i.imgur.com/l6AgyGj.png
Terran is getting the “zerg” treatment. Welcome to what it feels like to be zerg for the past 6 years. Now Protoss is insanely busted in both matchups. If a protoss doesn’t win the next premier, I don’t want to hear a single complaint from a single protoss whiner ever again. It will be beyond doubt that it’s a skill issue.
The following chart is now 4 years old. Anyone who can read this chart could’ve told you that protoss was insanely busted & that their premier performance was capped by skill. This chart is absolute proof of that, but some people take a long time to come to the same realization. These people have to nerf zerg for 4 more years and then nerf terran also, and they still probably won’t realize what’s going on after protoss bomb in the next tournament:
https://i.imgur.com/j4jtfR5.png
This is why schools need to prioritize teaching statistics. It’s probably more important than algebra and trigonometry, to be frank. The number of people who can’t read a chart like this, and realize protoss is busted / capped by skill, is just mind blowing. Charts like the above are absolute, unequivocal proof.
still begging for more terran nerfs are we ? Toss being insanely overpowered and getting a 75-25 favored match up wasnt enough for the PPP? Things dont change, i suppose.
Here’s a quick reality check. Protoss represents more than 59% of grandmaster league and is immensely easier to achieve higher elo with. If you are grandmaster with protoss, you probably woudnt be if you tried to main the other 2 races.
The poor terran players to be nerfed further into oblivion. The race is ALREADY the hardest. When does it stop? When do we finally get some well deserved strong buffs to core units like to MMMM or to non-cyclone mech compositions. Terran FINALLY had something simple that could keep greedy or cheesy protoss players on their toes and they nerf it almost immediately.
For the sake of debate, I’m going to point out here the fact that with chronoboost active they have the fastest upgrades even despite that fact, by a good amount, though their unit specific upgrades do take a while even with consistent chrono.
But unlike both the CC and the hatch, it doesn’t leave a worker vulnerable (hatch cancel, CC construction), and builds both HP and shields at the same time - if health damage isn’t applied then any damage done prior to HP is fully regenerated which is significant on something that has 2000 hp.
No.
For TvP specifically, there’s a very, very specific back and forth that happens. Marines early are bad vs gateway units early. Stalkers outrange them and are faster than marines are, Adepts do bonus damage to them, and zealots absorb a lot of damage (though can be kited).
This changes when Terran gets their upgrades; specifically stim and combat shields. Terran now has the ability to pressure, catch and kill gateway units because stim gives a huge DPS increase and movement speed increase.
A second change occurs when Twilight tech gets researched. Blink and charge both give gateway units a ton of agency. Blink allows stalkers to blink back to safety and absorb damage/reposition effectively, making them extremely potent when there is no medivacs to heal because of how stim operates, allowing stalkers to very easily pick off damaged units. Charge specifically never really falls off either; Zealots do a lot of damage assuming they can connect and keep up - it’s why kiting is so important - but lots of chargelots can absolutely ravage a bio army. I’ve seen bio armies evaporate to chargelots even with medivacs, but even so their role tends to be more tank-related (though they slaughter siege tanks in almost any capacity).
A third change occurs when medivacs come out; blink stalkers become a much less offensive and much more niche unit utilized primarily for sniping drops and anti-air defense, while chargelots still retain their ability to absorb and deal a lot of damage, you’re relying more on splash damage to do that damage, or at least weaken the bio army somewhat.
However, a bio army that isn’t microing against a protoss army (outside of that first change where they get stim and gateway units don’t have upgrades) is going to lose almost every time to a protoss gateway army. Chargelots especially will murder a bio army that stands still, rather than kites them. You absolutely, unequivocally cannot fight a gateway army without microing the bio army.
Notice I have never argued about healing mechanics to which all races have.
Fact is all Protoss units having shields give them extra life which makes them very much tougher and hence easier to play. As in much more forgiving. The other 2 races do not have extra HP.
That’s because protoss units are generally much more powerful than their counterparts in terms of damage and HP and that’s why there is a longer build time. This has always been the case since SC1 where such macro mechanics do not exist. Only possible exceptions are Terran Battlecruisers and Zerg ultralisks.
Anyway like Zerg and Terran are required to pay for their macro mechanics via Queens and Orbital Command, it’s only fair for Protoss to pay for their macro mechanics.
And nexus isn’t inferior to either Command Center or Zerg hatchery. Unlike CC which cannot self-repair and would burn down if the HP is too low, the Nexus have self generating shields.
You can try to only just use A-move on both marines and zealots with equally skilled players and in an open map with no terrain hindering movement, the zealots will always prevail.
Fact is Protoss are much easier to play.
And while the Protoss is having a relatively easier time playing the game, Terran players have to micro the marines like mad to dodge dangerous attacks such as chargelots, colossus, disruptor and high Templar’s storm in order to stand a chance to win.
One misclick on the marines, the game is over for the Terrans going for bio.
Yes every races are different but Protoss are being badly designed as in being the easiest race to use.
Glad we can agree on Photon canon rush but there are other cheesy Protoss strategies are deadly such as :
You don’t necessarily need heavy armour or splash to kill marines. Zealots with charge will murder marines.
If that still isn’t enough for you, you can use adepts and oracle’s pulsar beam to kill marines.
Agreed with this but there are other cheeses such as proxy warp in, shield batteries and permanently cloaked dark Templars making Protoss a badly designed race.
With a few exceptions, Terran tends to have higher damage outputs than Protoss.
This has to do with the way units are specialized, their combination of mobility, durability, damage, and range. Usually, Terran units are focused on damage + one other major attribute, like mobility (at medium range) for Bio & Cyclones; or durability for Thors & Hellbats & Battlecruisers, or range for Siege Tanks & Liberators against ground & Vikings against air.
There are only a handful of cases where Terran units are not particularly focused on damage. For instance, both of the Thor’s air attacks deal relatively weak anti-air damage; but they are specialized for very long range on a very durable unit.
In contrast, Adepts, Stalkers, and Zealots tend to be focused on a combination of durability and mobility. Protoss units (except casters/Disruptors) are generally focused on durability and one other attribute.
Yesnt. There is a breaking Point of i think 20 Marines and 10 zealots (Charge stim and Combat researched and both got +1). I Tested this 2 months ago or so. 20 Marine and upwards will Always win in Same cost a move scenario.
The truth is: If you Micro Marines Just a liiiiiiiittle Bit they will Always destroy zealots in a Same cost scenario. Even more if the Terrain is Not Open field.
Overall I think PvT is an imbalanced mess because of how Terran was designed to basically have no weaknesses, they get everything they need at every point in the game.
Their only limiting factor is how freaking slow their production is compared to Warp Gates and Larva banking and that’s kind of a problem for an asymmetrically balanced game.
That said I’m not sure it’s a problem that can be fixed this late into sc2’s life cycle. You’d effectively have to fix this during WoL’s beta phase to make Terran less complete, in line with the other races and adapt balance around years of results.