It's over for Protoss in PvT

General Discussion
229

I like how you state vikings lose supply vs supply. But forget to mention the cost.

A phoenix cost 150-100 a viking cost 125-75.
1 carrier cost 350-250+100 interceptor minerals. 3 vikings cost 375-225.

A phoenix has no relevant use except harrass and defend vs drops in PvT. Carriers are literally one of the worst lategame units in the game currently cost for cost and gets hardcountered by allot of the units a terran can make.(mine marine thor bc)

Vikings however do have a reason in PvT. They stop collosi, they stop prisms, they stop tempest. hell u can even snipe obs with them. You also make sure your opponent can never tech to air due to the inefficient trading protoss air does versus vikings. Let alone build time.

What kind of an argument is this? landed vikings are weak vs zealots? Thats just looking for excuses. What kind of a person lands a viking versus zealots?

The point that i was trying to make was to show you vikings are an air superiority unit and the Anti air of toss is lacking. We are forced to use blink stalkers to catch vikings as our best defense against terran air allongside storm wich isnt a viable option after emp upgrade. And it is NOT unthinkinkable for vikings to land to fight stalkers:

Also your argument about vikings vs warpprism+ht. You make it sound like 1 storm automatically kills every viking in an instant.
Like ghost emp do with templar.

Yet 1 volley of 9 vikings autokill atleast 3 high templar if they are dropped. to storm.

Also stating ghosts are more expensive then high templar is just hilarious.

150 gas vs 100 gas is 1/3rd of the gas cost, thats not barely. Thats: you make 3 ghost vs my 2 high templar in terms of gas cost.

Also remove stalkers immortals and ā€˜anything else you are runningā€™ because the gas cost of those units need to be considered aswell. If you make High templar, you are making zealots, static defense or bases. period.

You cannot make stalkers and high templar and expect to beat anything terran throws at you. gas wise 50 gas per stalker is extremely steep for the ā€˜coreā€™ of your army.

One emp per high templar is NOT inefficient at all. Considering every protoss aoe unit cost an extreme amount of gas, and you can basically carpet emp the rest of the high templar due to EMPā€™s range upgrade and never worry about storm during the next 25 seconds.

The specialization makes it so a ghost is BETTER then the hightemplar counter part. Ghost have 100 health, templar have 40-40. Ghost have
3.94 movement speed vs 2.62 of the high templar. Ghost can cloak. Ghost can nuke. And ghost can carpet bomb emp. High templar can feedback, wich gets outranged by ghostsā€™ emp. and the only use is versus ravens in the early/mid game.

Dtā€™s and lurkers dont carpet bomb emp to shut down all casters.
Yet dtā€™s cost 125-125 due to the DPS and the ability to be invisible.
The dt/lurker point you made was also not relevant.

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230

Thatā€™s why i have been saying, forget ghosts and revert raven to hots raven. Terran needs seeker to counter, vipers, infestors and broodlords. It is like removing infestor abilities and replacing them with abilties which cause 0 dmg and same with viper, what would you tell than, i bet zerg would complain sh1t out of blizzard. Only terran can have unit, which is forbiden to cast its spells, intereference matrix is forbiden to cast againt corruptors, or broodlords. But 2 parasitic bomb instantly kills 20 vikingsā€¦ And anti armor is useless since it doesnt kill, seeker is 10 times better, because what is reduced armor for when all my units died to parasitic bombā€¦ Also ghost should be able snipe instantly againt energy casters, emp is pricy, after 1 fight there is good change you wont have single epm if you used cloak, which you have to in order for your ghost not suck and die instantly ! You should be able snipe instantly energy casters like templar or infestor, it is huge disadvantage that was removed, what there is one infestor sticking from their army about to launch fungal on your ghosts are you don t have emp and you cant snipe it, you lost 20 ghosts you lose whole gameā€¦

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231

You clearly play a lot of terranā€¦
Vikings are 150/75
Ghosts are 150/125

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232

You are correct vikings are indeed 150-75. They still trade favourably against both my examples however.

The ghost i was looking at HotS stats. i didnt realise they increased the gas cost to 125.

233

150/75. Do not lie about unit stats. Look them up if you donā€™t know them.

Thatā€™s 450/250 to 450/225.

Disabling Cyclones, disabling Siege Tanks, and picking off Medivacs or other air units are all legitimate uses for Phoenixes; although you may only encounter the last case in PvT.

If you have a mixed army, Mines usually cannot get close enough to threaten air units. That depends on your composition though.

Marines are a legitimate threat if you donā€™t have splash damage.

Thors outright lose to Carriers. Carriers beat Thors on DPS and durability, and they can kite the Thors so that they donā€™t take damage after they launch their Interceptors.

In practice, the only massive air units that Thors actually counter are Tempests and Brood Lords, and in both cases Thors are only soft counters to those units. Tempests (speed and stack advantage) and Brood Lords (range bug) can both beat the Thors with micro; and Brood Lords will beat Thors without micro unless the Terran player has Hellbats or another option to kill the Broodlings before they can inflict too much damage.

If the opponent is landing his/her Vikings because of Stalkers, either your HT, Colossus, Disruptors, Zealots, or whatever else you have in your army can attack them. I find it extremely hard to believe that your army only consistes of Stalkers, HT, and a Warp Prism.

Vikings are an air superiority unit, but Protoss anti-air is definitely not lacking against them.

One storm generally ensures that everything else you have will kill the Vikings. Vikings are not like Bio. They take a decent amount of time to accelerate and take a lot more damage from Storms as a result.

You should just shut up and read up on unit stats before you comment on them, because your ignorance is frankly sickening.

Ghosts cost 125 gas, so the ratio is 6 Ghosts to 5 High Templar; but the Ghosts cost 650 more minerals in that scenario. As a result, the Terran army will be much smaller and often weaker if they spend that many resources on Ghosts.

It is outright dishonest to pretend that gas costs are the only thing that matter.

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234

The HOTS costs were much worse than the current cost.

Each Ghost cost roughly twice as many minerals as most other units, so Terran could not build many Ghosts without drastically reducing their army supply. Ravens (100 minerals, 200 gas) were actually cheaper in practice because you could afford a much stronger army alongside them.

In your original 3 Ghosts to 2 HT example (using the old costs), the two HT cost 500 less minerals, which usually equates to 8-10 supply of extra combat units.

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235

2 hours later you correct me when i already stated i was mistaken about the gascost.

2 hours later and you couldnt read what i typed.

Mines BLOW UP interceptors. Have you ever considered that? I know you dont really understand the interaction of thors/mines/marines versus carrier.

But let me enlighten you. Those units do not focus fire the carrier to trade. They focus the interceptors making carriers useless overlords with absurd HP that dont even add to your supply instead they REDUCE your supply by 6. Because you know. everything that shoots UP automatically focusses the interceptors FIRST.

Also you find it hard to believe toss has stalker/collosi/ht, yet i just showed you a PRO game where EXACLY that happened. it wouldnt hurt you to actually look at the video i added in my reaction.

Protoss anti air definatly is lacking against them. Thats why you dont have a solid argument for a good counter to the viking. Except saying ā€˜they have plentyā€™

about that comment you made about vikings focus firing a warpprism with 4 high templar in themā€¦ ā€˜everything elseā€™ IS stalkers. And guess what stalkers DONT have 9 range thats 6. So unless you think protoss can just blink in an MMM ball to kill your vikings. Nothing else can touch them except that 1 storm.

I also like how you try to tip the scales in your favour again by stating ā€˜8-10 supplyā€™

Instead of outright saying 5 zealots. cuz thats all you can realistically make.

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236

I just got back from a job interview and lunch.

I did read what you typed.

If itā€™s monobattles, then sure. Otherwise it can depend on your other units which may or may not kill the mines before you launch the Interceptors.

Thors are NEVER a threat to Carriers. The Thorā€™s anti-massive attack has much lower DPS than the Carrier, and the Thorā€™s anti-light attack still has low DPS and a very small splash radius; such that it rarely hits more than 1 or 2 Interceptors at once. You will not beat Carriers with Thors in either mode.

The exact words were Stalkers, HT, and a Warp Prism.

That video was also a clear case of Harstem playing poorly.

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237

Assuming that the gas expenditures are equal on each side, then that is also 4 Stalkers, 1 Colossus with other units, or almost 2 Immortals (not quite because of the cost increase). In either case, that is extra units on the Protosss side and no extra units on the Terran side.

238

We are talking golden armada. What other units does toss have except air + ht?

That video wasnt a clear case of harstem playing poorly at all. That video was a clear case of EMP killing harstem, regardless what he tried to do.

If a macro player like harstem plays poorly, its not about unit compositions. its about micro ability 9/10 times.

harstem got permanently shut down by the emp with every move he tried to do that game.

Thors ARE a threat to carriersā€™ interceptors. You are correct in that the aoe of the anti air of a thor is small. But once theres multiple carriers out. that splash exponentially increases in value. since interceptors tend to clump up when focus firing targets. We are talking golden armada. Wich means there is allot of carriers. 2 thors can instantly kill 20+ interceptors with there first attack due to the splash.

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239

Build disruptors if you donā€™t have the micro for disruptors immortals do fine in combination with carriers.

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240

The big problem with disruptors is that they are reliant on your opponents micro.
Ive had games where i killed half of the terran/zergs army. And it has that ā€˜jackpotā€™ feel to it.

But realistically, once you miss blowing up your balls even once, and you dont have other forms of aoe. (namely early game) You basically auto loss due to sheer numbers the enemies will have.

Also if you have no supporting units, disruptors are basically always traded. And seeing the only true tank for protoss is the zealot it ussually doesnt bode well trading cost efficiently.

This is also the reason why blink stalkers are used allongside disruptors most of the time. Yet stalkers are the most cost inefficient gateway units protoss has.

Dont forget disruptors dont have an attack by themselves. Once you use them they are immobile and can get sniped. Once you hit or miss you are forced to wait 21 seconds for the next hit.

Disruptors mobility is also pretty lackluster. 3.15, the same movement speed as a chargeless zealot and a collosus. So it doesnt compliment well with stalker based armies.

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241

tl:dr please all i read was Carriers interceptors get blown up by widowmines/thors and Iā€™m wondering what your actual point is?

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242

My actuall point is that protoss lategame has been neutered to non existance. Every tech unit the protoss has has been gutted. From collosi to ht to carrier.

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243

I like the upgrade but i wish there was some counterplay like feedback is easier

244

but i wish there was some counterplay like feedback is easier

Feedback needs a range of 10.

245

Good thinking. I like that point of view.

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246

I think this subject is far more complex than people think it is.

In a vacuum, new Ghosts arenā€™t overpowered at all. EMP doesnā€™t kill and has a hard limit to the damage it can cause.

What makes new Ghosts OP is that Terran have HIGH DENSITY SMART FIRING DPS (stim marines) that pairs up so well with the new Ghosts that itā€™s absurd.

What are Protoss supposed to do? Build Disruptors? Medivacs existā€¦so does stim splittingā€¦

How about Colossi? Sure, if the Terran forgot to build a few Vikings or Liberators.

EMP was always sleeper levels of broken in TvP because Protoss are so heavily reliant on shields and without them, Terran can practically press T-A-left click and win most battles.

Edit:

Personally, with all the Protoss nerfs and EMP buff, Iā€™d look at giving shields damage reduction toward spell damage based on the shield level. So, for example, Shield 1 would have a 10% damage reduction towards spell damage. Shield 2, 20%, 3, 30% and onward, excluding Sentry bonuses.

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247

How dare terrans be able to compete against Protoss!

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248

Yet in kr gm there is still 36% protoss occupation and protoss leading. But on pro level protoss getting completly dismantled, even it is early on in season. Because this game is balanced around 0.1% pros, while in low gm, or masters level, small changes like this doesnā€™t have to necessarily shift balance that much, because there are still op things like 3 nexus, or bannes, not every game you will get to ghosts. It is like banneling buff was completely unnecessary, because buyn was too good with 16 marine drops and snipping bannelings, for another 99.9% of players game is now brokenā€¦