With zerg I feel its more of like a make your own pzza restaurant.
You start with pickign a base (lingbane or roach), then you pick some support units (hydras, ravagers, mutas, lurkers, corruptors, vipers) which are the toppings. Then you transition to the desserts which is your end game composition (broodlord-infestor, ultra-corruptor).
Queens are the cheese, you simply can’t call it a pizza (a race) if you remove them.
The problem here is that the scales arent actually even in terms of spell casting power. Not only is storm now worse than EMP (vs Protoss), but also Protoss spellcasters can be blacked out in the blink of an eye.
I would agree with the tech switch route…but that doesnt work either. Without shields colossi are sniped like nothing - it’s even easier for bio to just dive on them now. Disruptors aren’t good against bio (and battlemech) at the high level. Too easy to dodge, and now that shields are wiped out so easily they are easier to kill before the shot going off.
I think it would be great for the TvP metagame if Protoss had more options. They simply don’t, though. The Protoss was designed to be a bunch of less efficient units with gimmicks and a powerful equalizer known as the HT…that equalizer has been heavily nerfed in TvP.
Protoss is doomed in the current TvP dynamic
Protoss can carry HT in WP and thus avoid threat of being EMP-ed.
Youre acting like Protoss can choose to play “gateway” or “robo” in PvT
Protoss must rely heavily on gateway units no matter what.
and TvP mech is viable.
EMP and Fungal are AOE spells so they have longer range than 10 range feedback.
Feedback 10 range is basically a pipedream though - blizzard explicitly stated that they don’t want the HT eviscerating enemy casters that effectively.
The problem here is that the new EMP is not only very effective against casters, but also becomes an insane tool against the entire protoss army.
What do you propose?
Buffing the stalker would make it broken in early game TvP
On that skill level the Terran player can easily dodge/snipe disruptors.
Heromarine, TIME, clem, special, soul, Masa arent Korean
What does this have to do with TvP lol
It doesn’t work
Watch Hero vs Cure and Stats vs Maru
Hero became one of the greatest protoss players of all time on the back of his micro. He tried carrying HT in warp prisms and it failed.
Stats was playing out of his mind with HT and warp prism. He literally pre split High Templars and warp prisms so that he would have several of them spread out around the middle of the map. At one point Stats had THREE warp prisms flying with his army. And stats got decimated.
It doesnt work. The new ghost is utterly broken in TvP. Maru was just sending ghosts around the map spamming EMP, snipe (on the hidden high templar unloaded from warp prisms stats tried to prepare around the map) and even nuke.
I also find it interesting to note that both hero and stats, after G1s in which they were significantly ahead, but got steamrolled anyway thanks to the new EMP, both decided to go for broke in G2s by attacking planetary fortresses on Thunderbird.
I don’t have any insight into Protoss like they do, but two of the greatest protoss players of all time, and best protoss players on the planet, decided it was a better idea to try to end the game like that than continue letting terran build up ghost lategame comps.
No, he isn’t.
Apart from the Immortal, the Gateway is the only Protoss structure that produces core units–at least ones that are affordable, Skytoss and Sky-Terran are options in most match-ups, but usually only as very late transitions and they usually need some anti-air support or mineral dump from the ground…
Meanwhile, both the Factory and Barracks produce independent sets of core units that can cover nearly everything with only light Starport or Widow Mine support. This is why it is disappointing that mech was not viable for most of StarCraft II; despite having completely separate sets of units that filled every role that a composition needed to actually work.
In Protoss’s case, you have a core of Gateway units, multiple tech paths with support units that are nearly always viable; and the potential to switch to skytoss later down the road.
The fact that the factory produces “core units” is just a benefit Terran has that Protoss does not.
Terran has a core of bio units with multiple tech paths for support units as well, all of which are viable in TvP
For example Protoss can choose to support gateway with HT or colossus, Terran can choose to support bio with tanks or liberators.
Terran implements mines into the bio army. Protoss implements immortals
Protoss can phoenix. Terran has banshee.
etc
Not to mention the fact that mech is viable in TvP…it’s been used to advance and win in GSL tournaments…
Tank+Bio is situational. It works in timing pushes before the opponent has enough Chargelots to force friendly-fire or enough sources of splash damage to trade with the Bio; but it falls off hard later.
By contrast, Liberator+Bio is legitimate outside of timing pushes.
There is a reason why I used past-tense.
Tanks work very well all the way into the midgame. Even if liberators usually outclass them later on, it doesnt change the fact that there are tech paths available for Terran.
It was used in the last GSL…
How many times am I going to tell you that herO wasn’t ahead in game 1? Go watch the game again. It could not be more different to your fantasy about how the game played out.
Stats arguably was, but it was not some immense lead, and he had a glass cannon army, as stated multiple times in the broadcast. If he’d spent more of his bank on gateways he probably would have held, he gg’d with over 2k minerals left. The game was actually very close until he fell apart at the end. His counter attack got nuked for christ sake, are nukes OP now in your opinion as well?
You say go for broke attacking planetaries like they had no other choice. I’d say they did have other choice’s and this is just straight up a mistake, it is interesting that both game 2 had this characteristic, but it is straight up a bad play to attack into a planetary when it has support, especially in the case of Stats when there are liberators, I mean what do you want exactly? Protoss should be allowed to attack into one of the most fortified positions possible in SC2 and just roll through?
Stop cherry picking horrible engagements and saying “there was nothing he could do”, when its obvious to everyone including the casters that he can sit back macro up a bit and take a better engagement somewhere else on the map, you’re just being disingenious at this point.
Im not sure how you say all these protoss units need buffs when pvt is still P favored lmao
My god this is so horrendously wrong
I watched the game fully twice, and once while skipping some parts.
Youre just wrong as usual lol
lmfao. Youre clueless. The 14 stalkers stats warped in to defend his shield battery position just evaporated.
The game wasnt close.
Stats had double the bank. He was playing better. He had the more high tech army. Maru was simply turtling and stats couldnt touch him. Whenever stats moved in close to Maru’s army, Maru just spammed EMP and started blowing away chunks of stats army, so stats had to escape.
Stats didnt fall apart. Maru decided to stop turtling and bum rushed a Protoss position with like double digit shield batteries. Maru spammed EMP and nuked the shield batteries and photon cannons. there was literally nothing stats could do
There was no way stats could hold. Everything protoss just melts to ghosts now. youre delusional.
So on top of salvaging the 10% of his army that didnt evaporate to emp, stats is supposed to find 3 nukes within the span of 14 seconds?
Nukes aren’t OP by themselves. Zerg has a composition that can stand up much better to Terran than Protoss can, and it has mobile static defense. The nukes in that game was just a finishing blow that could have been achieved by anything after Maru just walked over 2 protoss defensive positions with double digit shield batteries and cannons thanks to the new EMP.
I’m glad that Steve the 1v1 Gold player who posts on blizzard forums is here to tell us how two of the greatest Protoss players of all time should have played the game.
This is not a dig at you. I, too, thought that hero attacking the PF was very questionable.
All of those thoughts flew out of my mind when I saw stats do the exact same thing, after a very similar G1.
There is something that the best korean Protosses are seeing that sub M1 terran players like us arent.
right because tastestosis knwos better than both hero AND stats
It’s not, which is why you rarely ever see it as frequently as you do TvZ and TvT Mech.
It was only broken because of how it could 3 shot marines. Which means everything but the base damage and the range is on the table.
But they are the same and only faces you expect to see.
10 range Feedback is absolutely necessary now. Feedback cannot ever get in range to be used since it’s out ranged both in cast range and also the added range due to AOE radius that EMP and Fungal provide.
Also guess what?. Feedback counters Ghosts, but only if the HT can get in range to use it.
It’s on my mod “Better Game Balance” right now, it’s a single change that vastly increases the number of usages of the Adept.
Follow your own advice:
Not really, that would be Zest. Hero became a great protoss player almost soley off the back of cheese and all in plays. Macro games have always been his weakness, and a large part of this is because he struggles as the armies get larger and his macro is poor in comparison to other pro players.
Tanks start working against Bio after Protoss has charge and a sufficient combination of Zealots and splash. This has been the case since StarCraft II came out. Sure, you can win games with a push like that, but it is on a timer.
Tanks against zealots, immortals, and archons midgame are laughably bad.
If you have sufficient numbers and a Barrier they can actually trade, but that’s around 16-24 Tanks, and that barrier will not hold up if it is comprised of bio units. Of course, maybe I’m underestimating the amount of Zealots that the enemy will throw at them.