By that logic if you had “win” button and clicked it it was the embodiment of satisfaction. That I was talking about. For such players the interest is not in the game but in the fact of victory, no matter how grey boring and thoughtless was the game. Very long time ago i played one non-target mmorpg and I was playing PvP there, matches were 3-9 minutes long for games ranged from 1x1 to 5x5. Don’t you think that some matches in stragegy is shorter than in arcade-like game is a symptome of a problem? And this problem is about a strategy. There is no satisfaction from the game, when there is no actual game. That happens when strategy game match duration is not even 15 minutes (i agree this number is arbitrary, but it’s kinda minimal value, 15 is very fast too).
2.It’s not about how i play. This video proofs that Karax + Swann is strong and even usually not-good in offensive way Karax becomes stronger with Swann ally. If you weren’t screwing the facts you would notice that my execution was far from perfect, and some flaws from my ally existed too, so this strategy can work even better (even in this video this worked out very well in our execution).
And using solars, putting anti-hunterling cannons on allies side and doing nothing is completely different things. Imagine there were no downtime for mining due to hunterlings, and this carriers will go out like 2 minutes earlier (ofc it isn’t profitable for you to notice, because your error judgment became more apparent this way).
Relying on ally in coop? What a crock! You don’t rely on ally only when you don’t play co-op. Simple. If you play with other player but don’t rely on him it’s no longer proper co-op.
Everyone who knows Karax well gave you good and grounded explanations. If you don’t believe and wanna see it, my video about defensive Karax is ambigous because many good players already made vids about this aspect of Karax and mine may be ambigous. For example you may search CtG’s vids about Karax. Ofc if you want to really know something instead of making things look like you are always right. Karax is not top-defense commander, but he is far from worse or mediocre at defense.
Taking the two “preeminent” defensive commanders, Swann and Karax (pretty much my 2 main-mains), I’ve noticed the following about them:
Karax, with heavy hitting (albeit slightly slow) Photon Cannons / Khydarian Monoliths puts him into “overkill against swarmy targets, great against big heavy stuff” while Swann’s flame turrets and faster-but-lighter hitting gun turrets is the opposite - great against swarms but meh against clusters of larger targets.
And if you notice, the armies are pretty much geared to “counter” what they have a hard time defending - during the latest “hardtation”, we got stanks. They can chew down a Swann turret wall because the turrets are issuing “paper cuts”, but a wing of Wraiths carves that stank up like a turkey - and of course there’s siege tanks or Thors to help knock out them big burly special infested while the flamers are burning up the hordes of swarming ones…
If a goal in the game was just to click on that “win” button, then I believe clicking on it right away would be the best approach, as opposed to staring at the screen for 30 minutes (while your ally is waiting for you), or purposefully missclicking, which would do absolutely nothing, only to click on that “win” button way later, because that for some reason would be more satisfying. Whether would that be a fun game or not, is another question.
I purposefully wrote “faster you can do whatever you want/need to do” - if that means just rushing the main objective, or doing bonus, or doing full clear, that’s up to you. Either way, I don’t see why taking longer to do the same thing would be more satisfying. That does not mean it can’t be more satisfying to you, but don’t say that as universal rule for everyone just because you feel that way.
And other people are impatient as well. My ally once left the game during CoA because I didn’t want to push J’inara any further (and trigger next hybrid) before finishing bonus because I didn’t think it was safe …
I need to enjoy the game. Maybe some players play games they don’t enjoy for some reason but I don’t want to discuss it right now, these guys don’t know what are games for. Why in the world you need the game you enjoy to end faster? For what reason? I guess you like win buttons and looking onto loading screen, or you do like these first 3-4 minutes of queuing workers in the game. Then I’d say find a better way to spent your free times cuz you may waste your time like this with more usefulness than playing fast matches when big fraction of the time is loading screen, menu screen, and making workers and putting buildings.
The flaw in your assumption (as usual) is that the other person who doesn’t enjoy the game the same way you do - doesn’t enjoy the game at all.
Just because a player likes efficiency and wants to end 15min game in 15min, it doesn’t mean this player didn’t enjoy it. You basically assumed:
The only way you enjoy the game is the only way.
The only enjoyable part of the game is having a deathball to faceroll.
When in fact:
Optimizing build order
Completing mission as fast as possible
Using different builds
Cooperating synergistically with ally
Re-queuing for different map/player for a different experience
Are just a few other ways of enjoying coop. Neither the above points or your way of enjoying a game is right or wrong. They just are different viewpoints.
People enjoy coop for various reasons. The evolution of your series of comments have been:
Make point Karax is a strong defensive player
Provide a video that doesn’t showcase it
Divert to scrutinizing mission completed time
Refocus and deviate to what is right way of playing
Proceeds to tell other people to stop wasting their time because subjectively you feel their way of enjoyment isn’t worthwhile.
I mean, I don’t see what purpose is served here at all? Can’t you be a little more understanding? Like you said:
So do other people. So why is it so wrong for everyone else to enjoy it their way? Just because it differs from your own? There’s a party option for that for a reason.
And if you consider that Repair Beam repairs all non-Zerg structures for free also that’s more money to be saved.
The extra production that Karax supplies though is a huge benefit for allies that works all game, the burst wave he provides also impacts upgrades and researches too.
All of those things help an ally ramp up much faster than he would normally.
Know what also helps your allies with “economic buffs” by keeping units alive?
Black Hole, Time Stop, Guardian Shell, Shield Overcharge, Tychus’s healers, Stetellites, Medics, Medivacs, Nydus Worms, Science Vessels, Queens, Mend, Defense Drone, Malignant Creep, what am I forgetting? Hell technically offensive cooldowns that wipe out attack waves and prevent your army from even having to fight or cooldowns that summon units as fodder can be considered “economic buffs.”
It’s like people say, Karax is “OK/good enough” but not when compared to nearly every other commander - there is just about always a commander who would’ve performed the mission better, in much more noticeable ways.
Stop blaming commander for noobish players who can’t even Google how to play Karax.
I play Karax often and most the time I’m the one pushing while allies sit at home getting ready. He is fine in defense and offense.
If a new player can’t figure out how to play with all the help available on the forum, YouTube, StarCraft2coop guides, than he deserves to lose and it is not comanders fault.
It’s always amusing to see a unit like a Marine or Roach get a Seeker Missile, Yamato blast, hybrid blast, or Siege Tank shock blast to the face, and then shrug it off like it was nothing
Those are from 11 COs. You need to have 11 other COs gang up on Karax to beat him at his own support game. Many of Karax’ support stuff are passive, so you don’t need to worry about allies who never use them (and it’s been a hassle chasing down Nikara, RS’ revitalizers, moving to Stetzones and asking my ally to switch to “green”, etc.).
I asked in a separate thread and evidently, Karax’ Chrono Field in building 15% faster is generally appreciated across the board.
In the few times I’ve had Karax allies, there were a handful who push like they were Artanis. I wish I still had some of those replays available, but it those games were truly a sight to behold. They get Sentinels out quickly, and between that and SoA, they handle anything early on. Later on, there are also Immortals and Energizers. Same deal… they push into enemy territory like nobody else’ business.
I didn’t say I didn’t appreciate it, though I didn’t post the paragraph about preferring the support from basically anyone else.
Those COs aren’t “ganging up” on Karax. Each of those COs performs better than Karax, individually, on their own, and as I said there’s probably other benefits I’m forgetting from other (or the same) commanders.
I disagree with the OP saying that Karax isn’t good at defense. There are two problems with that though: 1, defense isn’t a large enough part of the game, and mutations reduce that even further. There are too many mutators that prevent you from building structures anywhere aside from your base/expansion. There are, on the other hand, mutators that promote defense but none of those require Karax or is anything any other commander can’t handle. 2, any other commander that is good at defense is also good at offense or support too, or both. Creating a marine in 8.5 seconds instead of 10 seconds is not comparable to something like Shield Overcharge or Black Hole that prevent you from losing any units at all. And frankly, the amount of maximum incoming resources doesn’t even really support Chrono Field/Wave, and is often wasted.
It’s funny that Karax being able to push into a base - just like any other commander - is some feature that needed to be pointed out and given attention LOL.
Karax can do defense, but honesntly half of the commanders are actually better at it than him and can push AND do defense simultaneously where as Karax can only do one unless the game is like +25 minutes long…
Colossus and Carriers are parts of his tower defense, add Colossus for zombies cleanse, add Carriers for emergency repair(double pressure mutation). And of course use your orbital abilities to damage attack waves before them reach your towers.
And at last, try not to play Karax just like static defense specialist, he is map control specialist.
Karax would benefit from a “warp out” ability to reclaim money from his static defenses when they are not needed any longer, then put that money straight into army or defenses in better position. I have played with Swanns who basically build defenses all the way up to the launch points for the shuttles on Void Launch and win the map that way
“Not a protoss thing so nope” people said. Would help Karax so much it hurts. Then again Maguro’s solution of “Rewarp (Move around)” solves it too and is very protoss.
I’m comparing overall support abilities from one CO to another. Some have certain things they do better (like Abathur can heal everything with mend), Karax still has more tools in his toolbelt when it comes support.
The one thing that does help is nukes. For some COs, it’s too much of a hassle to recall units just to fight nuking ghosts, so a tower does wonders in that regard. Then again, I heard people complained that nukes were getting too nasty, so the devs ended up nerfing them.
I guess if there was a mission where towers were required… such as build X towers in an area to keep the mission’s plot and objective moving along. This would nullify Swann’s salvage since he couldn’t just refund them. He’d need to keep them there.
I’ve suggested that too. Recall on Nexus (targets large radius, but with a higher cd… say, 30s to 3 minutes), but instead of working the way it does on units in Versus, it works on his insta-built buildings (Pylons could be exempt, or just make an exception and double dip… they stay, but you get money for them anyways)
My only problem with nukes is that they’re so poorly implemented in co-op. On Oblivion Express, the ghosts can just nuke you from below if you have the north base with no sight on the location, just constantly being an annoyance to your mineral line while hanging out where there’s an enemy encampment nearby. If you build defensive structures, he’ll just nuke from further away to stay out of range.
Then you have them throwing nukes into already busted compositions, like on Chains of Ascension, where I saw BCs with yamato at the 7 minute mark… after a double vulture rush both at the objective and bases. Nukes along with that? No thanks. Never mind that ghosts can literally just spawn in your base. Even that part’s doable, but still annoying, especially when they ALWAYS come with the most OP comps, rather than boosting weaker ones.
