Guess who wins the game - creep spread edition

General Discussion
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https://streamable.com/xbyp7h

  • This is a high Grandmaster game. The zerg is 5.4k and Terran is 5.7k.

This is the upgrades tab: https://i.imgur.com/mCUws7j.png

  • Zerg leads with 2/1 vs the Terrans 1/1 (bio) and 0/0 (tanks).

This is the income tab: https://i.imgur.com/4mb8cmS.png

  • Terran has a slight advantage in the first half, MASSIVE disadvantage in the second half.

This is the units lost tab before the final fight: https://i.imgur.com/wa5t9pe.png

  • Equal despite terran throwing away liberators and tanks for free.

This is the army supply before the final fight: https://i.imgur.com/vL1L4wp.png

  • Zerg is massively ahead.

This is the units lost tab after the fight: https://i.imgur.com/ItRdcJu.png

  • Terran utterly dominates the fight regardless.

TL;DR

1 base Terran outmacroes 4 base Zerg while throwing multiple liberators and tanks away for free, creates stronger army with less income, utterly wrecks zerg in trading despite lower upgrades and having a much smaller army. Zerg spreads creep like a madman and it makes literally no difference (forum cry-force in utter disbelief - they were told creep makes zerg overpowered!).

Conclusion: Terran is massively overpowered vs Zerg. Nerf terran.

EDIT: Also, before “BuT tHe ZeRg HaS lOwEr MmR tHaN ThE tErRaN” - the zerg would be 6k mmr if he weren’t losing -60 mmr to every 5k mmr terran that he faced against.

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why was the tldr longer than the actual post?

just opened the video. saw a proxy hatch. turned off the video.

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The real question is how many free marines did the terran get from that cloud of medivacs. Terrans complained about infested terrans but infested terrans didn’t cause 150 supply Zergs to utterly wreck 200 supply terrans from an upgrade deficit. Free workers. Free flying marine factories. Terran is the free unit race of SC2 and it’s a big balance problem.

Yeah because hard countering the terran’s proxy 2 rax is a bad thing, right? Lmao.

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always hurts so much when you see 6+ tanks and libs plus bio against a Zerg playing roach
bio alone scales better than roach and then tanks lib.

Burrow play was nice. thought first is a bly game.

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im not saying this is a counter argument or anything but can you unhide your profile?

how could the zerg have known there would be a 2 rax proxy and if it was a hard counter why did he loose?

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He didn’t. It was pure luck. Terran lost control of his natural while the zerg was on 4 bases the terran was on 1. It doesn’t matter because terran has free workers (lol) which also have the bonus ability of being able to over-saturate (LOL).

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if he lost from 4 base while terran was on one that has nothing to do with balance the zerg got mega outplayed.

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Except the reverse happened. The terran was outplayed in every way from bases to income to map control to workers to harass to upgrades.

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listen, if the zerg lost from while being 3 bases ahead of his 1 base opponent its because hes bad and if you played the game you would know that too.

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Again, you haven’t seen the video. The terran was radically outplayed at every waking second right up until his final push which was 50 supply lower than the zerg and behind in upgrades and then he completely flipped the units lost tab upside down despite the zerg having a massive concave. Terran is behind in every way yet wins the fight due to a combination of flying free marine factories and the insane splash output of siege tanks.

The ability to mass a cloud of untouchable free marine factories is overpowered.

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Yeah the roach is probably the most over-countered unit in the game. Back in HotS if you maxed on roaches and the terran made 130 supply of bio units he’d win the fight. Now they have liberators and tanks, too, and even thors, hellions and vikings are buffed too which help vs roaches in many ways. Not to mention the BC and the banshee (which has a new speed upgrade). The roach would be a dead unit if zerg had a better option.

Burrow play I find is literally the only way to beat terran players. For some reason they go full derp and don’t make a raven, waste their scans, lift the command centers and get them blocked by burrowed units, etc. It was a good call for the zerg in this scenario because the terran was spending so many scans clearing out the creep in his natural/third. It’s a good option for when the zerg has better mechanics (multitasking etc) than the terran.

The problem is that while roaches are pretty good at hit and run tactics (harassing workers, delaying bases, picking off stray tanks, etc), they have absolutely no capacity to actually engage the Terran’s army as you can plainly see in this video. Zerg is ahead in upgrades and supply and the terran utterly wrecks the zerg’s army.

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How about putting a replay instead of a wall of text showing what we could see easily on a replay?

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List one thing you expect to find in the replay that hasn’t been provided already.

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lets see…

-Time
-Upgrades in each stage of the game and before fights
-Production tab
-Value of your army vs him
-Knowing the build and proper reaction of the enemy, with a video you only see what you see, not what he sees.
-Resources lost for both parts at each stage of the game and before fights to know if Z was trading or just losing.

Putting just some numbers of the final fight is useless, your army composition wasn’t good, he had a lot of tanks and your answer to them was poor, staying at minute 16 with mass roach/ravager vs 6 tanks plus bio,libs and 8-9 meds is not a good idea,specially if you don’t manage to kill the tanks with the biles, due to the poor quality of the video and lack of replay I don’t know if you managed to land them on something or not, apparently you placed them on th bio but it moved back, so the tanks were sitting happily while firing uncontested.

And I would like to see better that final fight, the quality is so bad I don’t know if you managed to kill a single tank or not, I think you killed one but im not sure.

Well, creep is used for vision and to fight on it, you used it for…I don’t know, vision I guess, but you didn’t use that knowledge because you left the terran come to your door that has no creep, imagine you see him and surround him while he is on the middle of the map, you fight, and then you have time to build one round of army.

Then why you start threads with plays in which you stay with roaches until minute 18, are you bad at the game or are trolling?.Fight with tanks and libs, you don’t kill them, you lose the fight, and you start a thread about it claiming imbalance.
The fact is you threw the game, starting with leaving the scv alive, getting blocked on your main, not managing well your proxy (that wtf attack with some slowlings and a single roach), staying too long on the siege while not building properly your macro at base, then when terran goes out you have nothing but roach ravagers that does not land biles because you are not good and your army composition didn’t allow to it.

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Still on roaches and ravagers 16 minutes in?

Too cowardly to post a replay?

Cries about terran every single day of his life?

Man this guy is so ez.

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Not relevant given you know the upgrades for the final fight and that prior to that the zerg was trading equally.

Not relevant especially given the unusual nature of the game all timings are basically irrelevant.

Again, what do you expect to find?

You already have that.

LOL

You have every number that matters and yes these numbers absolutely should decide how the fight goes. When you are ahead in supply and upgrades and have been out-mining him the entire game, you should win the fight easily. What you are basically arguing is that a zerg can be ahead by every metric and that it doesn’t matter, but what you fail to realize is that that is EXACTLY what I am saying, too.

Yeah that’s the point.

Again the timings aren’t relevant because it’s a non standard game. 16 minutes with roaches is perfectly normal considering he was doing a 2 base allin. But you think I am supposed to tech to hive while he is on 2 bases? That’s pure delusion.

Lmao. I was constantly fighting on creep practically all game long. You might want to get your eyes checked.

I can only say this so many times. It was a non standard game so typical timings DO NOT APPLY.

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My guess is tehbatz always loses. Is this place your personal blog?

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I have a 76% win-rate in ZvZ and a 56% PvZ vs top Grandmasters, a 30% win-rate vs Terran (which also happens to mirror Zerg’s win-rate in Code S).

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On your way to 0% with ZvT I see. Good luck!

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Blizzard controls balance, not me.