why? sure you need barracks for unlocking factory but what stops you from from utilizing the factory? or starport for that matter?
member the battlecruiser rush? what is here so diferent than a oracle opener f.e.? in both cases you are opening the techpath without utilizing the initial structures beyond securing your own location for the most part if you even use the racks/gateway in addition of building a wall
sure both openers are aswell figured out, but they still need a measured response and can criple if you aren’t prepared
actually, in game 1, zest was behind all time, but byun couldnt win major fights involving ht and colossus, look from minute 14:00 to 14:15, he was ahead 30 supply then 15 seconds later he was even. After zest managed to get even, then something i still dont understand happened, in minute 16:00 he decided to go up the ramp against an already well positioned terran army, while stucking all his units together with no splitting in, I have to say, a very bad engage (dont get me wrong, zest is an amazing player, even the best players make mistakes), after he had lost a lot, instead or retreating he decided to attack again in that same ramp. After that fight, byun was up 30 in supply. The fight you’re reffering to with liberators is at 17:40, as you can see byun has 30 more supply, but despite that he couldn’t end the game, it took a lot of time and efford to do so (byun was even 40 and 50 supply more than zest in certain points) liberators werent so usefull after all.
in game 2, it was just a very bad luck (probe didnt see the 2 barracks for just 1 inch, zest decided in that same match to proxy, just later than terran) sometimes, as we all know, starcraft is a very cruel game. Then zest put all probes agains marine, i’d say a questionable decision, but i see he was kinda confused at that point
come on. Really? I didnt get any replies for two weeks…but this College Wings guy who is on here trolling every single thread on the forums gets all these thumbs up and replies??? Well makes perfect sense actually…it’s a sign of the state of SC2 right now. Trolls, try hards, ego maniacs, streamers, and smurfs now rule SC2 and with an iron fist.
Well it’s not like terrans are winning anything recently anyways. They keep peddling the same agenda on the forums “buff zerg” “buff protoss” and now you can see the results of this. Zerg and Protoss are overpowered as hell and terran can’t win anything to save their life. But it must be because of those pesky “whiny terrans” LOL the ppp are all protoss and zerg trolls.
Yes, everyone is OP, except for the one race you play, which coincidentaly has the most Stealth, Teleporting T3 Air units, an universal counter-all as the most basic combat unit, an upgrade to that unit that is even more of an universal counter-all, 2 Siege Tanks variants in which one of them even flies, and the strongest nuke spells in the game.
Totally Protoss and Zerg’s fault you keep losing until you are back in tyhe league you really belong to!!!
Maybe… hear me out here… just maybe… you should stop trying to beat a superior force with meaningless and robotic mechanical skills, and just evolve into an abstract mind, so you can start using units higher in your race’s Tech Tree, that do not begin with the letter M?
I know. Tis a difficult path, Evolution.
But one you must trek, lest you face extinction, or wrist fractures.
just for the record I don’t have a main race. I play ll three. But I just feel so bad for terran players. They are made to look bad and their race has been getting screwed. Terran has the slowest start of the three races…and I know things like MULE spam and BCs and ghosts can be a problem but I feel overall they are weak compared to the other two races…also seems like they have been getting the most nerfs in the last several years.
No. Objectively, the most nerfed race in Starcraft 2 history, has been perpetually the Protoss.
The very design of Protoss is all wrong, in this game, and it needed to be completely redone from scratch, but the devs never bothered to change it, because they needed to ship the game, and if one race was fundamentally redesigned, the other 2 would cry out for redesigns too.
It shows Terrans do have options, and that video is an interesting share.
However, if you ever tried a similar composition, you’d have noticed that it is vulnerable to surrounds ; and quite micro intensive at that : you have to siege the libs, EMP the templars, stim, split, dodge the novas and focus/control back the vikings. EZ. Also the fact the libs require sieging allows the protoss to simply get around them, and or setup counter attacks or runbies. So your need to be quite agressive to pin the protoss at the place you want him.
So, it’s not because a Blizzcon champion can pull it that it’s necessarily easy.
Criticizing the terrans whiners is a thing. But doing it by also whining doesn’t makes your claim any more convincing than theirs.
And yet, the fastest players are also the best ones, not only at SC but also at SC2.
Also, I like how non terrans assimilate MMM to T1 (whereas starports are in third place in the tech tree), and bio based compositions to MMM.
The video is instructional indeed. However, though your conclusion might be true, it’d require inhuman skill to draw a 3 races conclusion from a single game, from a single MU, and involving only two players.
It’s not ideal to start making liberators before 8 minutes because medivacs take priority due to bio units using stim. As for ghost rushes, that was a meme strategy back in the day… As for a BC opener, they shouldn’t get any major damage done. Just think about how well Zerg can deflect the first BC and then multiply that by 4. Protoss is significantly better equipped at dealing with air harass.
Guess the forum monkey got banned again so he had to make another troll forum account. Flagged.
It’s the only thing you can do. The only thing I’d criticize is that he didn’t make a shield battery right away… And this one dumb mistake (completely his fault) basically cost him the game.
Probably because I’m not delusional but keep getting jealous off of internet points get a grip
Even your insults are so weak. This is what happens after months of getting torn apart by logic, facts, and wit. You become a sitting potato in someone’s kitchen only to start sprouting in a plastic bag, and the only option left is to throw you out
Jog my memory back up. I remember ravens getting nerfed. Cyclones were changed (for better or worse). Tell me, what else got nerfed?
Was it ghosts when their EMP radius increased by 0.5 by an upgrade? Was it reverting the marauder’s attack back to a single attack? Was it the BC move and fire change? Was it the stimpack 21 (?) second decrease on research time? Was it the QOL change for liberator range to be in the fusion core? Was it the medivac booster upgrade? Was it the thor attack speed change? Was it the change on the blue flame hellion cost? Was it the widow mine cloak behind armory change?
These are the changes I remember off the top of my head. Tell me right now, what nerfs did Terran receive? And if you can’t find any, let me tell you right now: you are living in monkey space. Clean out your head.
I address this in following responses. Overall, it is more difficult for Terrans, but not to the extent that Protoss deserves to get trashed on like this.
I’m not whining. It’s an objective observation that Terran does similar things and does not have to SCV scout every game. Do you play the game? Terrans tend not to SCV scout. Protosses scout all the time. Whining would be more along the lines of “wow look at this, Terran can just stim F2 a move rally across the map and win games ezpz”
The fact that the game could have turned around so quickly if Zest had moved his blind probe an inch to the right just goes to show how ridiculous the risk of this proxy is. It is a dumb risk. If Zest was doing an immediate stargate proxy follow up, and if he had planted a shield battery in his base as soon as he was able to, Byun would instantly lose. If Zest had scouted Byun normally, he would know he’s being proxied. The fact of the matter is, Byun did something ridiculously risky and got maximum payoff out of it. Not a balance complaint by any means. This is an observation.
It’s not as clear where some units are classified in Protoss and Terran (it’s very clear with Zerg). But it’s certainly clear that marine and marauders are T1. Medivacs are either T2 or T3 depending on how you look at starport units (I lean towards T2). The fact of the matter is they are low tier units. Are you going to try and convince us 3/3 MMM is T3?
Not sure why he called it instructional, but my intent was to show a case where Terrans do something other than MMM and can win.
I’m not sure how vast is the sample of players you have in mind, nor if you recall it accurately. Terrans do scout most of the time, but some of them skip the SCV scout to the profit of a reaper scout in TvT, and more infrequently in TvP.
I’ve seen (with Nocti being an example) a terran not scouting most of its TvT, and in my opinion his scouting and information gathering was clearly one of the things which held him down. And during the stream of Juggernaut Jason (which is excellent, I commend it for people looking for relaxed high level terran streams), I’ve witnessed protoss players not sending probes, with Jason saying “and now, the probe is going to harass my SCV”… and the probe coming 45s later or not showing up. XD
As for if I play, I just saw the light. We’re talking about Age of Empires, right ?
Jokes aside, of course I do. And I SCV scout systematically, particularly vs protoss. Because that’s one of the MU where I don’t only search to scout, but also to see the timing of the opponent scout. If the opponent’s probe is crossed early, then I know I just can’t let it unobserved, or else I’ll be too late to counter the incoming proxy or fullwall/ lowground canon rush.
That sounds awfully close to what you wrote.
Collegewings, all active players do whine sometimes. And your post wasn’t only whine. But, that part, summing up a terran actively EMP-ing, sieging, dodging disruptors and focusing by “F2 stim aclic” definitely looked like it.
I’d say that cancelling the nexus right away against a 2 rax was a mistake (but it’s true he didn’t know the amount of raxs). Normally there is no way the marines can kill a well microed stalker, so he could’ve either landed a battery low ground on the opposite side of the nexus, or right on the choke, and then whittle at the scv->bunker-> marines once he’s got a second stalker. It takes a long time to gun down a nexus. he thought it was a 3 rax I think. And lost 10 probes to 4 marines…
Are you implying that for you, attack upgrades define the tier of a unit ? O_o
Medivacs are T2 or T2.5. Which means that Marines Marauders Medivacs by extension are also T2 or 2.5.
Terran can win, and terran can play other things than MMM. Yet bio currently is the go-to composition in TvP, and vikings ghosts MMM is a 10 years old bio composition, complemented by liberators since now 5+ years. That’s a classic bio TvP that Byun used here, with a touch of an old school fashion, but nothing revolutionary.
As for pure MMM, aside of timed 3 rax openers, it’s never used as is past a certain amount of time (>10’) in TvP since at least november 2015.
A Protoss that doesn’t scout either knows his opponent reliably macros or is a complete monkey that enjoys taking risks
Sigh… The point was to list things Terran do that are just like how Protoss does things. It’s completely on you if you misinterpret that part. I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s the best possible move. I’m not sure what to tell you. Like you said, he doesn’t know how many rax it is. In fact, if it were 3 or 4 rax, Byun would have won right then and there considering how many probes he killed in the following event.
I am just going to tell you right now. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Everything you said is completely disastrous.
And again you are misinterpreting… My stance is marines and marauders are T1. How the hell do you classify marauders or even MARINES as T2? I was poking fun at you by suggesting upgrades = justifying MM any higher than T1. Listen. There are some unclear classifications for some units, but it is 100% clear that marines and marauders are T1. Just like zealots and stalkers are T1. Just like lings and roaches are T1. It is impossible to argue that MM is anything but T1.
and 10 probes
to 4 marines. While he had a stalker.
4 stimless marines CANNOT kill a well microed stalker, as the stalker moves faster, and has more range. If you don’t know that, then you’re the one who’s lacking knowledge about proxy rax.
Coming from there you can have an attitude if you want, but what happened when Byun climbed the ramp is a terrible misplay.
Back at you.
You said
a -
MMM refers to Marines Marauder Medivac.
You then said yourself :
b -
Coming from there, a+b = c => any composition that includes medivacs is necessarily ≥ T2.
Well the terran AIs are insanely strong but they also average like 300-400 APM…Terran looks strong from the Versus AI point of view but I dont know like I dont see terrans winning the big tournaments there are also not too many on the ESL standings…course thats always changing though
Yes that felix iron that is actually ironical! Don’t discuss such matters on forum. Flagged.
I will repeat what I said to the other jesters, do you really think people who have played this game for many years HAVE TO LEARN FROM YOU that viking is the unit against Colossus and Ghost should be used!
Wow thanks, man you proved zillion times why I call this forum of GM posturz! We needed your invaluable Terran 101 advice
I did say in the other threads, maybe the PPP haven’t eaten their to learn that:
BIO DOES NOT MEAN YOU START MMM and that’s it
Reaper - Hellion Opener - BIO = BIO
Marine tank push = BIO
Liberator harass - into bio = BIO
Factories and Mech upgrades = MECH
Any opener and bio upgrades = BIO
1 1 1 WM drop or whatever with bio upgrades = BIO
Bio into air ships = BIO!
So ez to criticize terrans when you imagine they only mass marines without medivacs so it is more convincing for you to call tem idiots huh
Had to give reality check to these protoss posturz with very poor game knowledge
Again I am not going to explain to you why everything you said is disastrous. Do you want to tell me what rank you are and how many proxy rax’s you have done? You are actually so clueless that I don’t even know what to tell you.
As for your second bits regarding the tier of MM, I actually don’t know what to tell you either. At this point, it seems I am facing a different type of stupidity other than that one particular forum clown. Your misinterpretation is getting worse and worse, and if you are not going to properly understand what I am saying, I can’t have a proper discussion with you.
As for this clown logic, I think I get what you are trying to say. Because medivacs exist in the composition, it is at least T2 if not greater. That is like saying stalker zealot colossus is T3 because the colossus exists in the composition. This is just clown logic. There’s no tier for compositions of multiple units. Also, I don’t think anyone brought tiers into this until you did. You are needlessly confusing yourself with extra information that you brought yourself.
Hey, do you want to respond to what I said, or do you just want to call me a troll because you are jealous over internet points?
Also, all AI are weak, and the APM is completely random for all 3 races depending on how the game plays out. They will freak out over 1 liberator and their APM will skyrocket.
You are swimming in your own cesspool of delusions. I have no idea what point you are trying to list with these openers. Terran openers vs Protoss have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. No one is talking about openers here. The fact is that the only units many Terrans spam (after whatever opener they use) is MMM in almost all cases. If they mix in viking/lib/ghost, great. If not, you have no excuse to cry about getting overwhelmed by high templar/disruptor/colossus after your first push fails to do enough damage to compensate for your lack of tech transitions.
get a grip
felix iron that is actually ironical! Don’t discuss such matters on forum. Flagged.
to learn that: