Get OC and MULE it up

Co-op Missions Discussion
1

It should not come as a surprise that MULE is better than SCV. Here’s a topic on the reasons as to why. Aside from the free of supply, no collision, multi-per-patch common sense reasons. The detailed discussion I wanted to bring forth for those who don’t know is the rate.

We are obviously discussing Raynor since he’s the only one with SCV and MULE.

Here’s some basic information about SCV:

  • Takes 17sec to build.
  • Gathers at 5min/trip.
  • Movement 2.81 and acceleration 2.5.

Here’s some basic information about MULE:

  • Takes 50 energy from Orbital Command.
  • Gathers at 25min/trip.
  • Same movement and acceleration.

Here’s some gathering rate information:

  • SCV gathers at about 61.22/min on near patch vs 53.57/min on far patch, average 57.4/min.
  • MULE lasts about 64 sec (post coop change), gathers 2.05x longer.
  • MULE runs about 9 trips averaging 225minerals for its duration (210/min).
  • Based on the mineral per minute: (210/min) / (57.4min) = 3.66x effectiveness.
    • This is a slight under-estimation since you should be casting MULE on near patch as oppose to far patches. However, I realize not everyone may be doing this so we’ll use the 3.66x effectiveness.

Okay, what do all this mean? You should get Orbital Command as early as possible. OC takes 150mineral and takes 35sec to build (just over 2 SCV’s time and 3 SCV’s cost).

  • For a delay of 35sec, you are trading for the 210mineral/min turned into 87.5mineral/min GAINED on the first minute (25sec of 60sec, as 35 is used for OC).
  • You are also trading off the 57.44mineral/min x (60 - 17) = 41mineral/min LOST on 1st would have built SCV.
  • Similarly, you are also trading off the 57.44mineral/min x (60 - 34) = 24mineral/min LOST on 2nd would have built SCV.
  • Note that 3rd SCV is ignored since OC is finished and production of SCV can continue at this point.

So for that single minute on your OC while it is under construction, you gained 87.5mineral and lost 65mineral (41 + 24), a net gain of 22.5min. However, OC does cost an extra 50mineral (as the other 100 is spent on 2 SCVs anyway). So the net loss is actually 27.5mineral on any given minute of CC to OC conversion while non-saturated.

Important Takeaway
Despite that initital 27.5mineral loss on the first minute. Your net gain any minute after that is 210mineral/min. And since each MULE is equal to 3.66x SCV. The rate of return per time frame after the first MULE is always more.

What about the total rate of gain on SCVs? Surely the mineral rate is different when I have 12SCVs vs 14SCVs?

  • Yes, this is true.
  • 14/12 = 1.17, or a 17% gain in rate.
  • 17% of 57.4mineral/min = 9.8mineral for that minute.
  • The rate has diminishing returns in the ‘rate of gain’ the more SCVs you have in total to the new addition per time frame.
  • In a different perspective, 60sec / 17sec (per SCV) = 3.52 SCV made per minute by CC. So any minute of MULE calldown is not only 3.66x more effective, you can only make 3.52SCVs (not efficacy since it takes 17sec for 1st to start, 34sec for 2nd, and 51sec for 3rd to even start working).

So then should I wait to make OC first always? This is a loaded question… Since we know MULE is far more efficient, the question here is will waiting for that 150 mineral be worthwhile?

  • You start with 12 SCVs each at 57.4mineral/min efficacy, total 688.8 mineral per minute or 11.5min per second.
  • So in order to get 150 minerals that’s 13sec (less than 1 SCV production). That’s an additional 13sec waiting, so the math here is 60 - 35OC time - 13 waiting = 12sec of 210mineral/min = 42min Gained (vs 87.5min gained previously). So that brings the net loss from 27.5 minerals + 45.5 mineral (13sec additional waiting loss) to total 73 minerals.
  • YES, absolutely YES in P3 because tech requirement is removed.
  • Any other prestige (minus P1), that 150min is now 300min (Barracks then OC), so the time is also doubled on waiting of 26sec. Moreover, Barracks takes 33sec to build. So the total wait time is actually 59sec, practically a minute. This is a total net loss of 234 mineral in that single minute. That’s greater than your net gain after that minute. You should absolutely get OC as soon as possible, aka after Barracks.
  • So is it worth it…? Debatable. In theory, you can gain that back throughout the game, but the in practice lost time is too great. You’ve essentially lost 1 of 4minutes in preparation for waves and objectives. Remember we’re talking about delaying the usual build order for 1min earlier OC.

Long post, hope you enjoyed the read.

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2

This may be too elitist.
Mules require attention to target them properly (how often did I see one land next to minerals and do nothing because I slipped), and you must also pay attention to not run out of them if you try to effectively replace SCV by them, and must pay attention to your energy reserve if you need your scans…

Probably a very elitist strategy, and elites that can pull it off, either are already doing it, or don’t need it.

Feel like these arguments would be perfect to give advices to an AI programmer though, as an AI would not have humans flaws/unreliability/individuality, and can truly achieve things from mathematical reasoning like that.

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3

Considering there have been tons of debates in the past, here’s a post that actually shows all the numbers. Considering how tight some people’s build orders are, and some bias toward doing it one way or another because someone mentioned it, it’s very helpful to see the numbers. Having gone back to playing with all 3 prestiges with Raynor, this info is actually quite helpful.

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4

For Raynor though, P1 aside, it really is a big boon to learn and get used to using his Mules. You’re not replacing your SCVs, the Mules are there to supplement the income. The difference in mid game, and late game in a tough match, is very worth it in the long run.

For any issues related to scanning, the trick I used when I was getting used to it was building an extra couple of Orbitals and hotkeying them separately to use exclusively for scanning.

You miss click a Mule and don’t notice? Not ultimately going to break the bank. You miss the cycle? Not an issue, just drop them when you get a moment, you’ve got two sets of patches that can all have a Mule.

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5

Mmm yeah not really. It is likely confirming something that most people already do intuitively, just with actual numbers.

Basically, MULEs are just better. When exactly you choose to get them, how often you feel like casting them, or any of the sort is up to you. The more you use them the better it helps you in return.

Even post saturation, MULEs will have a plentiful addition to your ramping up army. The numbers are there to portray their maximal benefit during the very early game - the sooner you get them the better.

6

Should note that just like in ladder, you can sacrifice your SCVs to free up supply in the mid/late game by replacing them entirely with MULEs (leaving 12 on gas, of course).

Assuming you had 16 at the main and 14 at the expo on minerals, that’s 30 additional supply for army units. For a prestige like P3, that translates to a 30% boost to cooldown reductions or 30 supply’s worth of extra cannon fodder Marines on P0/P2.

1 Like
7

Not 30% more like 11%

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Best part about being Raynor - if there is enough time on map, you can mine out all patches :3

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It’s 1 supply for +1% not 1 unit for 1%. The freed up supply easily accommodates 15x Vikings, 10x Banshees or 5x BCs.

10

Each supply of airport unit increase the cooldown speed by 1%.

If you don’t kill those 30 SCVs, you still have 158 supply of airport units.

158 supply = an increase of 158% = a total of 258% cooldown speed.

If you kill those 30 SCVs, it’s.
188 supply = an increase of 188% = a total of 288% cooldown speed.

The difference between 258% and 288% is roughly 11.6%

I just want to point out that if we are talking about cooldown speed alone, it’s only 11.6% in difference.

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11

I honestly did not know this could be a debate. In ladder, it’s pretty much universally known than you get orbital ASAP. Like what you’ve just done, it’s proven that getting orbital quicker will result in more minerals in the long run.

I didn’t think it was possible to complain about something like this. Then I remember I recently pulled up a co-op replay and my ally was playing at 20 APM. Even a beginner ladder player could use an orbital. This is far from elitist.

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12

Also, the energy regen rate on OC’s roughly lines up with the lifetime of a MULE. So once a MULE expires (sound+notification), drop the next one. Targeting one or two MULEs at a time onto a mineral patch means you’re not spamming it and missing patches. (Which happens often to me, if I’ve not been using them regularly.) Assuming you’re making at least 4 OC’s, remember to save up the energy on one for scans.

13

Well, MULE is better than SCV, but this discussion comes around again:
In a PvE game, even if you can singlehandedly wipe the map by yourself, if you don’t play the most optimal way, if you don’t play like I say, YOU ARE TRASH.
Yeah, I slap rock with Dehaka, fight me!

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14

OR you can play Raynor P1 like me… and then wonder what the hell to do when enemy gets an anti ground comp like reavers.

Don’t have to worry about MULEs then… or surviving the mission…

15

Make 20 barracks and drop marines directly onto reavers/colossus. It is not hard, just use right click. Unless you have a moral problem with treating marines like banes of Zagara.

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16

Good info.

You can get away with having your first OC a little later if you are playing regular brutal. You would still do ok. I see some Raynor players on youtube, not optimum.

When you are trying to solo or do mutation, it may be best to get it asap.

For me, it’s SCV, SCV, SCV, CC, racks, depot, SVC, (the rack / svc will finish the same time) then first OC. I find this to be my optimum. The 2x CC helps saturates your resource line fast while having some mules out (since I don’t do any scan early on).

Also players should make it a habit to look back at the base to use mules during the course of the game. If they don’t, those early OCs won’t help. Often times in heat of the moment players may forget.

P1 is good, but I find that p0 and p2 are all-round best. P2 dps is great.

For reavers, I mixed some banshees into my p1 build. They can soften the enemy waves b4 ur bio engages.

I think his point was to get your OC up asap. The rest are just data.

It is hard to get it perfect, but you don’t need to be perfect on the timings. Just make sure you look back on your OCs / minerals periodically and call them down.

I practiced on Raynor for months before I was decent at it. Often times, my partner said “noob” “learn to play” etc when I started out.

You don’t have mineral dump like P0, P2 and P3. Best to mix mech into your build.

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17

That is kinda expensive for P1 though.

Mass Mauraders, or roll with some Tanks or Banshees. P1 tends towards having a stock of vespene and a lack of minerals so mech support is pretty easy to add.

18

Reavers ran out of scarab before you ran out of mineral. It’s a win for you if you want to play war of attrition with Amon.

19

So P1 marauder does 28dps against armored and has 250HP. It tanks upwards of 3 scarabs (medic Dmg reduction not accounted), which takes quite awhile to come out.

For 100/25, that’s pretty good deal even without MULEs. This is kind of off topic though since P1 has no MULEs.

20

Nowadays I have more trouble finding Raynor players trying to mass Battlecruisers using P1 than people not opening with multiple OCs.

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