Can the devs just make air units like Battle-cruisers, carriers and tempests more expensive so that these units turn into a late game investment… This game is literally full of low hanging fruit pickin apes throughout the ladder, who just rush A-tier air units because its OP and EZ.
I don’t want SC2 being a game about dealing with the other guy from cheesing his @ss off majority of the games you play.
All these players are lazy, dopamine chasing people, enforcing their sht gameplay on others.
I agree but lets get real, cheese has been the ladder meta for 14 years now.
This would make the game reallty boring. Part of what makes strategy games good is the unpredictabillity in the early game.
Eleminatiing cheese would negate all strategic decisions in the early game pretty much making the game a snore fest.
If you just make those units more expensive, nobody would make them at all. They have to actually be worth the cost and investment.
You know BCs are already the most expensive unit in the game, right? 400/300 per BC, plus 150/150 for the fusion core just to make the BC and an additional 150/150 research for Yamato.
Carriers/Tempests require a 300/200 Fleet Beacon and cost 350/250 (plus 15 minerals for an additional 4 interceptors), while Tempests cost 250/175 and an additional 150/150 for Tectonic destabilizers.
Also, this. While I love macro games, playing the same thing over and over and over again would be really boring. New strategies, new compositions, new cheeses, learning to defend those cheeses and openings to get to that late-stage macro makes it more fun. If I was guaranteed to be able to just sit back and macro for 5-10 minutes without doing anything it would be extremely boring.
It’s debatable if some of those units are even worth the investment right now; Tempests come to mind specifically because they cost so much supply.
I would even add to this:
I played the Stormgate beta. What i found a bit problemtaic is that scouting didn’t cost you a anything.
Even a SCV scout in SC2 is a decision which makes the suspence of the early game intersesting. TBH if things get too predictable like (at least in my experience) in WC3 I would stop playing the game.
Even chess is not predictable after the second move.
Games less cheesy than it ever was when I played a lot frankly I miss the slower paced 6 worker start with random all in cheese builds. It was more fun but also hard to say how much was the game was also new and unsolved then. Also this isn’t even cheese cheese is when you get hit with 12 zealots off 4 proxy rax before 3:30 and they stat warping in cannons on top of your base same time XD.
A better “solution” if these rushes are actually an issue would just be increasing the time it takes for their key tech building to finish and/or slowing their production speed. Making fleet beacon/fusion core + first unit take 20-30s longer in total would really hurt BC/Carrier/Tempest rushes without affecting them at all in the late game, where they’re not really a problem.
Tempests are good at specific things that no other Protoss unit can really do, and they aren’t really dependent on upgrades like other SG units (carriers/voids without attack upgrades are a joke). They’ll always have a role, no matter how bad they are in army vs army fights, just due to their range and high base damage letting them fill the role of countering broods and poking at defenses even if you don’t have the upgrades needed for carriers.
I do think they could drop 1 supply and become a bit weaker/cheaper or be made a bit stronger and a bit more expensive though. Voids have the same issue of being awkwardly bad for their supply cost, but not by enough to just drop their supply cost by 1.
Banshees have a similar problem, though they’re sort of dedicated harass units because they can cloak, so supply efficiency isn’t as much of a concern.
Eh it is not different. My first games were dog rushes then I realized I would have to wall off or just not double expand in some cases. So far the game offers a free scout unit.
You guys don’t seem to understand. I was never against proxies or any other cheese strategy. The issue I am addressing is the mass carrier, Battle cruiser and tempest problem. This is the thing, I read comments saying “That not being able to all in macro these air units all game negating all the other units for the EZ win makes the game really boring.” (Big problem is the attitude right there.)
Mobas, competitive FPS games are the most successful genres out there and what do they all have in common? They are all just as repetitive as each other. There are so many better cheeses in SC2 than mass rushing A tier air units just to solidify a win. That isn’t fun, that’s sht game play and the feeling you’re getting is the reward system kicking in imitating a lab rat smashing the same button over and over again for the dopamine.
Making these units more expensive would not stop players from making them at all, because these very problematic players are the ones who would a mass as much of these same units as they can, avoiding any other available option and then just unleashing them for a one sided victory. After losing 6 carriers from their opponents they would respam the same unit again and again while taking out half of their opponents base with their remaining overpowered forces. And that’s it. That’s all they do in their games.
So if these such players can afford amassing as much of these units as they can, then they can definitely add these units to their unit composition if they were more expensive.
When it comes to Battle cruisers, Carriers and Tempests such units would be realistically be very expensive anyways.
I’m not saying Battle cruisers, Carriers and Tempests should cost more supply for the player I’m saying these units should be more expensive to slow down the speed of which these units are being produced in the game. That is all
Now I don’t know how Terran or Protoss deals with them but Zerg main problem can’t really tech up without crippling your self.
lol I’m not sure I attribute their success to the same thing XDDD. Is this even 1v1? the only place people mass air like this is team games and the games not balanced around team games at all. The last time I got rushed in 1v1 by BCs I had opened 6 hatches before a pool turbo greed 7 bases had no liar no evo no spores and I wrecked him with lings and queens and nothing else because while he rushed for bcs i held down the build drones button and it wasn’t even close . I dont think you can RUSH mass capital ships masing carriers vs easy ai takes like 12 minutes you can max a noob army in 7-10 minutes and kill them before then.
Pros don’t even rely on these units in tourneys, so just up the price. 2v2 and up is even worse so its even more the reason to make them costly units in order to have better games for everyone and to mitigate those lab rat players.
Yes it will. Why build Battlecruisers or Carriers when they can easily be wiped out by a group of units that is collectively much cheaper? There is no benefit to building an expensive paperweight that doesn’t trade well enough to be worth its cost.
Those players would just mass another unit, like Ghosts, Infestors, Thors, etc.
The only thing you will accomplish by increasing the costs of Battlecruisers and Carriers is removing them from play entirely, since they will serve no purpose.
They couldn’t and they wouldn’t.
A Battlecruiser doesn’t serve a role that is useful for Bio. Most of the units that threaten Bio are ground-based, and Battlecruisers are not particularly well-suited to killing them or soaking damage from them. A Battlecruiser transition from Bio is already very difficult to pull off, and definitely wouldn’t be worth attempting if Battlecruisers were more expensive.
Mech has an easier time fitting Battlecruisers into the composition because of the synergy between long range artillery and a durable buffer, but everything that Battlecruisers do can be replaced by Thors, Vikings, Liberators, or other units. A more expensive Battlecruiser simply won’t have enough value to justify wasting the resources, whether in small numbers or large ones.
Carriers definitely wouldn’t be worth building at a higher cost. Their interceptors do not disrupt the enemy’s target AI anymore (which was the main behavior keeping them useful before), so they actually depend on being worth their cost now. A more expensive Carrier simply won’t be used.
Tempests are the only unit that “may” still see use at a higher cost, but that is only because Tempests fill a niche that no other Protoss unit can fill. They are the only unit that can fight compositions such as Brood Lord + Infestor + Viper + Spore without getting taken over, zoned out of range, or pulled. Even so, if you increase the cost of the Tempest, you cripple the ability for Protoss to handle those cases so they might opt for all-ins to avoid that scenario instead.
No matter what cost (resources, supply, and production-rate) is set for Battlecruisers, Carriers, or Tempests, they have to be worth that cost in order to be useful. If they aren’t worth the cost, then players will never build them.
Increasing the cost just increases the stats that each unit must have, which doesn’t do anything to solve the problems that you are complaining about.
I propose that Blizzard raise the cost of the carriers while Harstem himself made a video where he wants the carriers removed. lol
The title of the vid is “Why The Carrier Should Be REMOVED according to Harstem.” And its on his channel
What race are you blaming from if it Zerg
then main problem is not enemy its more do crappy design of Zerg.
because main problem Terran and toss has same design in tech and puts Zerg snail pace of upgrades which Zerg have mass wasting mass resources to compete with lower upgrades.
By time Zerg hits 3/3 has depleted its resources toss and Terran can easily keep up or be head.
To fix this is remove tier system
Yeah, and this is the reason why half of the ladder is filled with cheesers.
Why would you bother with normal game which is very hard, requires lot of game knowledge, apm, multitasking if you can have easy, effortless wins under 5 minutes ?
Blizzard never fixed this issue. If there were only few cheese types perhaps it wouldn’t be a problem but you have so many variations like this:
It was supposed to be strategy game so to me the more of these that exist the better if it was always the same macro vs macro games it would be a really boring game. Should ask for more cheese more variation more choices in builds not less.
Sad thing all early supper aggression can be countered by 12 to 14 pool.
Fighting against toss I always go 12 pool so if they try proxy anything I will catch before they can finish
I think how I play is much different I typically build 2 hatcheries before I even make a pool the way I play is pretty much super greedy and hope it baits them into all in me then hold the all in and win.