Fix MMR range for Toss and Zerg

[Sentry-2358]

@llllllllllll-12402

Source? You and Adventurer both cited the same performance metrics (but stated opposing conclusions) and didn’t cite the source.

I Look within the Same Race and He Looks across all races. Which doesnt make Sense . Comparing different Race mechanics is pretty much Apples to oranges. For example zerg will pretty much Always have the highest average apm due to Design.

He knows that but He Likes to Troll.

@llllllllllll-12402

Finally. I got you to at least admit it.

So, in what measurable way are they inferior?

Bronze Players are in fact inferior to silver Players who are inferior to gold Players. Funny how that works with the mmr Thingy?

In what measurable way are they inferior ? Like i demonstrated to you: the Activity for example. A Bronze Player is less active than a silver Player. A silver Player is less active than a gold Player…

[llllllllllll-12402]

@Sentry-2358

In what measurable way are they inferior ? Like i demonstrated to you: the Activity for example. A Bronze Player is less active than a silver Player. A silver Player is less active than a gold Player…

On average, Terran players play MORE (yes, yes, it’s only 1%). So where is all that extra activity going? It has to go somewhere. Just because the margins on this are only to single digit % points doesn’t mean they disappear.

[Sentry-2358]

@llllllllllll-12402

On average, Terran players play MORE (yes, yes, it’s only 1%).

I have told you it fluctuates. Sometimes they Play more Sometimes they dont.

What i mean is the Activity difference between all leagues. Go to nephest and Look at “league”. Its pretty obvious to See that a Bronze Player plays less than a silver who Plays less than gold.

Given that information and also that terrans have similiar Activity within the Same League compared to the Others we can conclude that those Bronze and silver Players indeed belong to Bronze and silver because their Activity Matches their League. do you agree?

And also yes, there are those Other metrics that batzy mentions. The more skilled you are the more apm you get and more spm and your spending Score will be better (on average a Bronze Player has less apm spm etc than a silver who has less than gold etc etc.)

[llllllllllll-12402]

@llllllllllll-12402

Just because the margins on this are only to single digit % points doesn’t mean they disappear.

Thanks for completely Neo-ing your way out of that question lol.

The problem is that when you zoom in more and more, the fractions of a percent disappear.

BTW, do you just know better than Showtime? He’s also maybe the highest ranked pro to say it, but he’s far from the only one.

[Sentry-2358]

@llllllllllll-12402

BTW, do you just know better than Showtime? He’s also maybe the highest ranked pro to say it, but he’s far from the only one.

Wow cool now you resort to obscure quotes from 6 years ago.

Stick do the facts.

You asked me where we can see measurable differences between the performance of bronze/silver and so on. I gave it to you. Now you are goalposting and act like this is irrelevant.

@llllllllllll-12402

The problem is that when you zoom in more and more, the fractions of a percent disappear.

This is not whats happening here or whats important here. For example silver players are 21% of the playerbase and make up for 16% of the total games. This is not just 1% difference. This is a huge difference. Compared to diamonds who make up 25% of the playerbase but 35% of the total games played.

And you can see that the higher the league, the more they play if you normalize the total population and devide it by their share of total games.

Since the current season is bugged because of leagues and alike we could look at the last season:

League, Percantage of total playerbase, Percantage of total played games
Bronze 8% 2%
Silver 22% 14%
Gold 20% 12%
Plat 21% 22%
Diamond 24% 36%
Masters 4% 6%
GM 0% 1%

We can see the clear trend that higher level players are putting more work in. Well that was obvious but now we see that. We know that terran players are on average slightly more active or exactly as active as other races within their leagues. This means that a bronze terran is still only as active as a bronze player. The difference in activity for terran is not nearly as high as the difference between the activity for the different leagues (for example in order to have the same activity as a silver league player, the activity for a terran bronze player has to be much much much much higher compared to bronze zerg or bronze protoss) .

There you have it. A measureable difference between Bronze/silver/gold. Will you accept now that terran players are where they are because they deserve it? No ofc you will not. Why not? No one knows. You will find some mental gymnastics to do it.

For the data in sc2 replaystats use:

sc2replaystats. com/stats/analytics

But right now its bugged.

A quick example from Winterstarcraft:
twitter. com/StarcraftWinter/status/1495249571215294467

The average APM of each race per league from 3 million games on sc2 replaystats. We can pretty much see that protoss and terran have the same avg apm and the higher you go the more apm the player will have. A bronze terran/toss has on average 50 apm but a low diamond player will have 100 apm meaning exactly 2 times as much as a bronze level player. Obviously the higher you are the more apm you will have (correlation, not causation btw). Meaning we can see a lot of differences between a bronze player vs a diamond player other than their mmr.

This is pretty much obvious to everyone and even you know it. You just want to annoy us and you want us to prove every little bit. What we pretty much have by now. So please will you just accept the fact that bronze players suck and that 50% of bronze is terran not because the race is too hard but because they deserve it by every observable metric?

[llllllllllll-12402]

@Sentry-2358

@llllllllllll-12402

BTW, do you just know better than Showtime? He’s also maybe the highest ranked pro to say it, but he’s far from the only one.

Wow cool now you resort to obscure quotes from 6 years ago.

Stick do the facts.

So yes?

@Sentry-2358

You asked me where we can see measurable differences between the performance of bronze/silver and so on. I gave it to you. Now you are goalposting and act like this is irrelevant.

Terran players must be measurably inferior because there is a measurable MMR disparity. I’m not asking you why Lower league players are inferior. That’s obvious. I’m asking you how TERRAN players are inferior. You didn’t “answer the question,” you changed the question then answered that.

[Sentry-2358]

@llllllllllll-12402

I’m asking you how TERRAN players are inferior. You didn’t “answer the question,” you changed the question then answered that.

I dont know why i have to constantly repeat this: Terran players are not inferior. Not terran as a whole. BUT we see clusters in bronze/silver dragging down the avg mmr. Now i have given you the proof that those guys in bronze/silver indeed actually belong to bronze/silver.

By splitting them into lower level players and higher level players we actually see that terran players achieve as much as the other races. Meaning they are not inferior. The mmr disparity is only because of those guys in silver and bronze league. And those guys are in fact inferior to higher level players.

@llllllllllll-12402

I’m not asking you why Lower league players are inferior. That’s obvious.

Btw in the past you actually did. You try to gaslight me. Same with the “analysing clusters is bs” lie. Stop that.

@llllllllllll-12402

So yes?

no
why are you goalposting again?

@llllllllllll-12402

So, in what measurable way are they inferior?

you asked me that right after i said bronze players are inferior to silver players who are inferior to gold players.

i answered that. i gave you evidence. you always talk about how you will change your mind if evidence gets presented. Now we have the evidence that bronze terrans and silver terrans belong to bronze and silver. this explains the mmr disparity between t and p/z and also explains why the mmr disparity diminishes when we look at low level play and high level play seperatly.

stop goalposting. stop weaseling around. bronze and silver terrans belong where they are.

[llllllllllll-12402]

@Sentry-2358

You try to gaslight me.

Are you some annoying girl that I dumped or something?

@Sentry-2358

I dont know why i have to constantly repeat this: Terran players are not inferior. Not terran as a whole. BUT we see clusters in bronze/silver dragging down the avg mmr.

But we see them drastically lower ranked as a whole.

[Sentry-2358]

@llllllllllll-12402

Are you some annoying girl that I dumped or something

No?`but you lied.

See:

@Sentry-2358

Miro more or less Stated that the terrans in Bronze are in Bronze because they belong in Bronze. They are in fact inferior Players (at least at the time) compared to silver/gold etc

And you answered:

@llllllllllll-12402

Finally. I got you to at least admit it.

So, in what measurable way are they inferior?

You asked what MEASURABLE way are they inferior.

I told you and your response NOW is:

@llllllllllll-12402

I’m not asking you why Lower league players are inferior. That’s obvious. I’m asking you how TERRAN players are inferior

Thats the best case for gaslighting i can hope for Bourne. You are funny.

@llllllllllll-12402

But we see them drastically lower ranked as a whole.

Yes. And we have now established that its understandable. Because bronze and silver players simply dont put the work in, they are in very low leagues. Because those leagues are filled with terrans they are dragging the average mmr down.

It aint exactly rocket science isnt it?

@llllllllllll-12402

But we see them drastically lower ranked as a whole.

Werent you the one who is saying we cannot generalize a whole population because of a small population?

@llllllllllll-12402

That’s obvious. I’m asking you how TERRAN players are inferior.

Now you are claiming terran players are inferior? But boune! this is fallacy of composition!! you told me that!!

[llllllllllll-12402]

@Sentry-2358

Werent you the one who is saying we cannot generalize a whole population because of a small population?

Sweetheart, “gaslighting” is the term that stupid, college aged girls use when they’re losing an argument.

So, there’s only a single explanation left remaining, the numbers are unreliable. That’s the only way Terran can overall have more activity, while when stratified have the same or less activity.

[Sentry-2358]

@llllllllllll-12402

That’s the only way Terran can overall have more activity, while when stratified have the same or less activity.

i sometimes question your intelligence.

I did not say that they have LESS activity. I said BRONZE players play less than SILVER players who play less than GOLD players. While we can see that terrans are not really more or less active compared to other races, however players in different leagues are not equally active. obviously.

And since you love activity so much: Do you think a bronze player should actually be a silver player despite not being equally active? same goes for silver player. should they be gold even if they arent as active?

This is the whole point of what i was saying for 4 posts now. And you simply cannot understand that. Once again you are completly missing the point of my statements.

@llllllllllll-12402

Sweetheart, “gaslighting” is the term that stupid, college aged girls use when they’re losing an argument

But you lied. Why should i be the one who is losing the argument? Once i told you WHY bronze players are inferior you changed to: DUUH its obvious that bronze players are inferior i wasnt asking that

[Eliwan-1354]

So, I’ve had this post sitting here a while and I need to make a new post, so I’m posting it.

@llllllllllll-12402

Yeah, it makes sense that I should prove that Terran players aren’t unquantifiably inferior.

This is not what got said. This is you either willfully or genuinely misreading what got said, and I do not know how to possibly correct the latter at this point.

In other words, nobody is asking you to prove that. Nobody even is saying that Terran players are worse players.

The request is on an entirely different axis: For the many listed reasons, we believe Terran is the race most attractive to players that are bad at playing SC2.

Why are any number of those false?

@llllllllllll-12402

You’ve officially crossed into complete idiocy and name calling along with the others.

Sorry, I wasn’t aware that weirdly asking you to use your brain is name calling?

In essence, I am accusing you of not using your brain - this is a very different statement than accusing you of not having one or insulting your existing intelligence. I’m saying you didn’t bother to think for some reason.

My intention was to be encouraging, but dispassionate because I’ve been told that my usual way of doing so is so saccharine it comes as sarcastic, so I apologize that my sentence was not unambiguous enough that it read as an insult.

If I wanted to do that, I’d’ve made it much more obvious and probably just actually put insulting words in the post directly. Like I did the last time - when I called you stupid, I just straight up said that your posts were stupid.

For example, I'd quote this:

@llllllllllll-12402

@Miro-11607

He’s not even talking about feminism, it’s literally you just generally being a dick. Being racist, sexist, whatever, completely unnecessary and completely irrelevant. And frankly it only makes your “arguments” weaker too.

I was being racist? Please explain.

Where Miro started and early-aborted a list of things that are generically not needed, important, and only demonstrate being a bad person when bringing them up; and you jumped on the fact that he used the word racist to entirely ignore the fact that the post that brought on that tangent was you completely randomly being a horrible sexist, honestly to the point of misogyny:

@llllllllllll-12402

You argue like a woman “why are you bringing up the past (I don’t like being proven wrong).”

There was no reason to do this from a logical perspective. This can only hurt your case. It is demonstrative of you being incorrigible; that when things don’t go your way you become petulant.

As Kelthar said then;

@Kelthar-1277

Anybody who thinks “you know what will make my point? A little casual sexism.” automatically loses the debate.

But I don’t really want to do that.

Because, y’know, that’s rude. It doesn’t serve a purpose.

[Eliwan-1354]

@llllllllllll-12402

But we see them drastically lower ranked as a whole.

In summary, this is the problematic sentence.

While on mean average, we can see a dramatically lower average Terran MMR, the whole point of the arguments is that mean averages are bad.

While that true statistic means that mean average Terrans are worse than mean average other players, and nobody is arguing this -

@llllllllllll-12402

Terran players must be measurably inferior because there is a measurable MMR disparity.

The problem is that, very simply, as we went over actually hundreds of posts ago -
“Terran players are inferior” implies something different than that fact. I explained this long form a month ago, here’s a few snips:

@Eliwan-1354

“Terran players are on average inferior” is true if and only if you decide to exclusively use a mean average over the player statistics. As has been shown, if you do anything more complicated than that when analyzing the player base’s ranks, you will very quickly notice a dozen other weird things.

@Eliwan-1354

Denotatively, I agree the statements A and B below have a significant degree of similarity.

A. The mean average SC2 Terran is worse than the mean average SC2 player.
B. Bad SC2 players are more likely to pick Terran than any other race.

They are not factually* equivalent, in both directions: A does not mean B, and though B almost ensures A, it doesn’t guarantee it.

The important distinguishing mark that I am drawing between these two sentences, however, is that if one was to read them without context, the conclusions most people will draw from them are radically different - especially when you exclude ‘mean’.

@Eliwan-1354

The scan read of the lines in question -
Terrans are on average worse players versus
On average, worse players are more likely to pick Terran -
The important nuance of the idea that no, a Terran of X rank is not a better or worse player than another race at that rank is far more clear in the latter.

In summary, if you desire to be misunderstood or intentionally spread misinformation, then you may choose to say “Terran players are measurably inferior.” The implications or connotative meanings from those five words are extremely distant from the statistical reality that you’re basing them on, but you could choose to say them if you want your opinion to be roughly the same quality as a clickbait article title.

And, at this point, I have to assume that you seek to do one of those two things. I lack a rational explanation for your behaviour if it is not the case.

@Eliwan-1354

Players who are bad, compared to the average player, are more likely to pick Terran; and they are, indeed, worse than the average player.

@Eliwan-1354

A player’s rank/MMR is based on the player’s skill, and has nothing to do with what race they selected.

[Eliwan-1354]

@llllllllllll-12402

Just because the margins on this are only to single digit % points doesn’t mean they disappear.

For the record to this; there’s a reason in statistics that you ignore anything that’s below a certain range - you need to make sure that your numbers aren’t just noise.

For a lot of statistics, this range is 5% - that if you get between 95 and 105% of your expected values, it’s very likely that the reason is that there’s a meaningful amount of natural variance.

I don’t think that’s the right threshold in this instance, but I feel this is an important thing to point out.

@llllllllllll-12402

Sweetheart, “gaslighting” is the term that stupid, college aged girls use when they’re losing an argument.

No. To say this is to deny a history of a phrase that is, bluntly, extremely important to have in one’s arsenal, and the fact that you can possibly say this simply further accentuates the barest of truths:

You are an asshole. You want to insult, debase, and denigrate people. You consistently have demonstrated that you have no respect for human beings at large and being a prick, very simply, does not, in any way, actually demonstrate anything besides the self-evident fact of it.

While it is entirely possible that you could be all of these things and also interested in a debate, you instead of actually copping to that you’ve been doing these things when called out on it, or even attempting to tamper down on it, you craft obvious lies and backpedal, asserting that you have been misinterpreted.

In summary, fuck you and the horse you rode in on and get out.

[llllllllllll-12402]

@Sentry-2358

@llllllllllll-12402

Sweetheart, “gaslighting” is the term that stupid, college aged girls use when they’re losing an argument

But you lied.

But you LIED! You GASLIGHTED ME! Oh, I’m such a victim! Our relationship is so toxic!

Is someone experiencing their first time of the month?

And I didn’t lie. I asked you: How are TERRAN PLAYERS inferior. Then you responded with how BRONZE PLAYERS were inferior.

[llllllllllll-12402]

Aww. Did I hurt your feelings little girl? Go and cry to someone who cares.

Too weak to actually beat me in the debate and just go have a little pre-teen temper tantrum.

[Kelthar-1277]

@llllllllllll-12402

And I didn’t lie. I asked you: How are TERRAN PLAYERS inferior. Then you responded with how BRONZE PLAYERS were inferior.

Plot twist, terran players arent inferior, bronze players are inferior. That would be the point. Nobody is going to give you an explanation for your premise, because your premise does not actually exist.

[llllllllllll-12402]

@Kelthar-1277

Plot twist, terran players arent inferior, bronze players are inferior. That would be the point. Nobody is going to give you an explanation for your premise, because your premise does not actually exist.

You can’t have it both ways man. I’ve been asking you to explain the disparity in MMR between Terran players and the other races. Not between lower ranked players and higher ranked players.

So, instead you change the question and answer something I never even asked, then you cry that I’m “gaslighting” you. Jesus, man.

[Kelthar-1277]

There is no disparity. Youre simply interpreting the data wrong. Try paying attention next time.

[llllllllllll-12402]

My dude you literally showed them side by side and even when you SPLIT THEM BY MMR (which is mentally challenged AF) there was STILL a disparity in MMR.

You just LIED! YOU’RE GASLIGHTING ME! I must be a victim.