Fix MMR range for Toss and Zerg

Pretty sure he’s talking about terran mechanics and it being the race that’s hardest to play

OK usually i wouldnt respond to you since you are either a troll or someone who is generally not worth the time or effort since all you do is insult or provoke people and write generally nonsense things.

But to clarify: Neither do we hear enough of the context in this interview, nor do we hear the questions.

It starts by asking why the early exit out of the tourny (assuming because of the headline). He replies: korean terrans. its hard to get good vs terrans because the european terrans are not as good as the korean terrans. He presumably gets asked why is that and he replies that terran is probably the hardest race to go to the toplevel because of the mechanics.

His answer is anectodical evidence for that time in 2018 (and btw i also do think that terran has higher mechanical difficulties because its balanced that way that you can basically win the game with t1 units if you micro them well enough, but you need to be able to micro them well enough to win; its the complicated thing about you can do it so you must do it in order to succeed.)

This still doesnt answer the fact that there are 50% terrans in silver and bronze dragging the average mmr down. Im afraid showtime has actually a brain and therefore doesnt think for a millisec about the distribution of bronze or silver players and i bet he feels real sorry for not being able to express his thoughts and knowledge about the whole complexity in sc2 for every league and every race in this 30 second interview clip.

So…yeah…it would be a very lazy and false approach to take this 30 second clip to somehow buff terran through the roof and give every terran +30% mmr or to assume terrans in general should have much more mmr because it seems to be harder to get to the top level. I mean we could ask the same about protoss now, really. Aside from maxpax there isnt a single toss comparable to the korean tosses and in the past it was the same: in the past there were no good european terrans or tosses. now we have multiple non korean terran champs but not a single non korean protoss champ. where is the question about that ? 0o

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He expressed enough, you just like to stay willfully ignorant. He said that terran is the hardest race.

Skill requirements are scaleable. There’s a pretty good qualitative argument why terran is bottom heavy. At the base level of starcraft skills, in this case bronze and silver - people will fight army to army without having to strategize or utilize mechanics. Army to army, units to units, terran is the weakest until they learn how to counter. Terran armies are always reactionary.

The statement that’s commonly said for why a terran lost is “you shouldn’t have let the other race build up their econ” , “you didn’t harass enough”. This shows how the game is played differently at different ranks.

For that i would like to have some evidence. I dont think there is hardly any good evidence that t is the weakest race if both noobs a moves. And another evidence i would like to see is that low level plays are only coming down to big army battles at like 20 minutes when both are maxed out, because thats what your argument is coming down to. Or at least i would Love to have enough evidence that it outweighs the already mentioned Arguments why beginners tend to choose terran as their Race and thus being so overrepresented in Low leagues.

Dont know if i understand this the wrong way but dont they contradict each other? Terran is the aggressive race, you can kill workers and harass with units like every second of the game. sooo…the enemy has to react and not the other way around. But only because pros do it and have success with it doesnt mean MUST do it at lower level. Often times they lose their drop and get way more losses out of that. Or the common fallacy of terrans overmicroing their reaper instead of focusing on macro and thus messing up the whole build.

But ive seen my fair share of very low gameplay lately…and i dont think you can put your finger on anything thats coming down. its about 2 blind people swinging around sticks in the hope to hit the other person. there is nothing for it to generalize.

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Oh you wanna play the ignorant game. How about you give evidence that it isn’t ? Terran is universally known to be the weakest without micro.

No one said anything about max out.

They don’t contradict each other. Terran doesn’t start on the same playing field so game play is always reactionary. The whole point of having to drop and harass is because they are disadvantaged when taking armies head on.

Zerg and Protoss have better economy from the start which is why harass is even a foundational principle.

High Level is Not Low Level. You cannot compare those 2. You cannot State that Things which are true on high Level are also true on Low Level.

By that your whole Argumentation falls apart.

What are you even saying ? I can’t compare how terran is designed to be played ?

You said yourself that in low league there is no concept of stratedgy

Meaning thinking about whats meta or how the game is supposed to be played or whatnot is not logical as it doesnt matter here. You sorted it out yourself.

This is only true because of meta. Protoss doesnt have any economical advantage compared to terran. They grow at the same rate. However protoss is allowed to take the expansion earlier and therefore they gain a slight eco advantage. Mana himself explained this topic very well when he compared different scenarios. For example 2 base terran vs 2 base protoss the terran is actually leading because of mules. Its one of the reasons the raven push is so good because if protoss gets knocked down to 2 base they arent even to terran, they are in fact behind.

However this meta thinking is not applicable to those in low league.

it is also not applicaple to theorycraft how armies fight each other because people in lower leagues have literally 0 clue about unit composition anyways. Do you know how many terrans in low league play siege tank turtle into bc? Same goes for protoss. Its cannon rush into void ray carrier or straight up turtle toss into void carrier. This has nothing to do with your so called meta army behaviour.

You’re not making any sense. I’m talking about how the game is designed. We are not talking about strategy. Zerg and Protoss have inherent strengths that are absent from Terran. Economic advantage being one fo them. Stronger army composition is another one.

Oh really ? Tell me how when Terran maxes miners on resources and when toss does it please

Oh really - you obviously never played terran before ever and clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Mules in the beginning are to play catch up vs Toss chrono boost and zerg inject and also lost mining time from SCV builds. Please stop talking.

So you’re saying they HAVE to get knocked down to get behind then, toss has the advantage right?
You’re just contradicting yourself and moving the goal posts as you always have. Stay ignorant my friend.

This happens when someone cant read.

I actually stated that p doesnt inherently have income advantage, but t does because of mules. But because protoss is allowed to expand faster, they have a slight eco advantage, but not by much, because then again: mules:

See? I already posted it.

Ever heard about…mules? Ofc protoss will produce workers faster than terran, but that doesnt mean that protoss has an eco advantage because terran has mules to compensate.

Maybe you should stop talking. Because what you are stating is not true. A mule is worth 3.5 to 3.9 times compared to an scv and will make 200 to 225 mins in their lifetime. The first mule is to play catchup, since you pay 150 for initial OC upgrade and the worker you cannot build, leaving you with a small disadvantage for the worker that still has to build buildings. However this gap is closed by the second mule.

This leads to the basic and obvious conclusion that on same base terran has a slight advantage because you basically can mine with more workers on same worker count but you have (on 2 bases) 7 extra workers in terms of mules, but you certainly wont build 7 buildings at a time, maybe 4, leaving you with 3 workers advantage. However on higher base count obviously this advantage is not present anymore since obviously protoss can produce workers faster and can put this to use.

However in lategame its turns around again because terran can substitute workers by using mules instead freeing up massive amounts of supply.

But again: none of this theorycrafting has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

You are not making sense, since its designed and balanced for high level play. But since its not high level play its not applicable.

Again: Learn about the mule.

This is not applicable since there is no baseline for any army composition in low level play. They simply dont know this concept :smiley: Why else do low level protoss mass the weakest/most counterable unit in the game? (Void ray; and maybe you dont know this yet, but marines counter void rays preeeetty well)

Also tell me again about the stronger army composition of protoss, when protoss basically says: nah i dont actually want to fight you at all and use disruptor instead? Its not a secret that in meta currently the brute army strength its t>p. The balance council acknowledged that and tried to help a little (for example by undoing the emp buff)

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Again you’re saying toss has the advantage and terran is playing catch up right? Remind me when chornoboost becomes available and when does mules become avaialble ?

lets talk tier 1 units , 1 zealot vs 2 marines. who wins ? You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s universally known that terran has weak army compositions in death balls. I don’t even know what you’re trying to argue. You’re just digging yourself a deeper hole.

I’ve stated before. The game requires terran to micro to win battles and terran micro is alot more demanding. Apples to Apples, A move to A move terran loses 90% of the time. So what you’re talking about is not the silver bullet you are envisioning

But hey I don’t know why I’m sitting here arguing with a low plat toss

Did you read how many scvs a single mule is worth?

ah yes ofc. thats why protoss is the race going for only t1 with some healy t2? oh no this is terran. the basic concept of design is: low tech units protoss<low tech units terran. Because of warpin mechanic. Get a clue.

Again: this is high level when spell casters come out. Nothing you mention is applicable to low level play. They dont have a concept of army composition. They play completly stupid “strats” with completly invalid unit compositions.

Ironic…your profile says you are 4k terran max.

This is a joke right ? You think mass marines can beat mass zealots ?

Ironic your logic is wood league

Again you seemed to have dodged this question

They in fact do if numbers get higher. without micro 30 marines vs 15 zealots is like the break point. with 0 micro involved zealots are barely winning. when you research combat shield and stim and charge for protoss then marines win.

This was done with 0 micro at all. Note that at least a little bit of micro would help massively in this fight up to a degree that you can easily win with 10 marines against 5 zealots and everything upwards is obviously better for terran.

Its kinda weird that you dont know this. Yes…marines beat zealots. Actually its funny! Didnt you hear the joke: A marine walks into a bar. There is no Counter? Because depending how good your micro is, you will counter any unit. But yeah it doesnt take much micro to beat zealots with marines.

Im masters. A bit above you. Not wanting to brag but to put things right. I dont think anyone should have that kind of attitude below 6k. I can understand if you would speak to a goldplayer and get annoyed but please…belittling a higher ranked player is so…muh

On a sidenote: I see that you are leaving many games in unranked on purpose…disgusting.

This is not what i said. The initial cost of OC upgrade leads to terran needing to catchup. With the second mule t is on par. And if you watch the resource collcetion rate closely in pro matches you would notice that t and p players are pretty much on par.

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why are we talking about pro players ?

You sure are , care to share your profile ? Also masters as toss is hardly worth talking about. Like I said the skill conversion means you are way less as terran. Please share your terran MMR buddy. Go ahead prove me right

Oh yeah ? where do you see this show me proof

because you are saying they are designed that way. if they are designed that way you would see this in pro play. if they are designed that way you could come up with any logical reason why it should be like that. i have demonstrated to you that terran is not disadvanted. mules compensate it just fine/a bit better.

You can literally click on the profile here on bnet. and if not type in my name on nephest

Ah, yes. Coming from a terran that doesnt even know that marines will beat zealots. Cool.

I hit 4k terran within 2 months. you can see that also on nephest.

/sc2pulse. nephest. com/sc2/?type=character&id=1651884&m=1#player-stats-mmr

this is just one of my accounts. My main account but not the only one im masters with.

ok
//imgur .com/a/6eJRBSM

Its the account you are logged in with but i still “blacked” out the names. I only did snaps for the first 3 losses, but it takes too much time for all the other losses, but those were all instaleaves.

You know that you can grab the bnet link on nephest and look up other people in sc2? What? you didnt know that? I thought you were so much more knowledgeable than me.

Except you haven’t, all you did was re-enforce that terran is at a disadvantage and have to play catch up. Hence they have to harass mineral lines to hurt enemy econ or else they are on a runaway

Cool thanks I didn’t know about nephest I use other sites.

So you’re significantly lower than your toss right? Look at the description of this topic. -400 MMR atleast , thanks for proving me right boy

Would be very cool if you could read :smiley:

No problem. Anyone that is actually good knows these kind of websites :slight_smile:

What part of “within 2 month” you didnt understand? You are in denial its actually laughable. You realize i got more mmr (on EU) in 2 month with terran than you in your entire career? :smiley:

So now please provide pictures of you being 4k with every race. Since its so easy getting good mmr with every race. Right? riiight?

And stop leaving games to beat up people who have less mmr than you.

Would be cool if you had any reasoning skills but hey keep turning a blind eye if it makes you feel better. Like I said you have only reinforced that Terran has to play catch up.

That’s fine , this isn’t about me - keep playing let’s see how far you get

I had played toss 3 years ago and got to D1 in less than 100 games higher than my terran MMR buddy , so yea I’m speaking from experience. Also you won’t get higher than your toss , you’re 4K because it’s anchored to your toss MMR , your real MMR if you keep playing is probably lower. Go ahead prove me right

1 mule=4 scvs == catching up. Yeah ok no.

Please prove it.

HAHAHHAHAH
HAHHAHAHAHA

Dont tell me you wrote that.

Did you read the graphs? It states that i ranked in terran BEFORE i ranked in protoss. I started with terran in 3k (can be seen in the graphs) and ranked 4070 mmr at the end. I proved the point. Thats it.
I was protoss main before that, yeah, but i had a long break but this was literally the first time ranking in lotv :smiley: and i did this with TERRAN :smiley: 2 month i was 4k. Then i switched back to protoss.

Hahahahahah what a troll.