Fix MMR range for Toss and Zerg

Two possibilities:
First, the idea that, yes, you can draw conclusions from clusters in data. That’s why the actual post says “[Cluster analysis] is commonly used in market research”, for instance.

Second, from the lower half of that post: Why the use of categories in this manner is important. It’s the same as from earlier, that mean averages are frequently bad because they get poisoned by size oddities in the sample data easily.

I was given information and a chance to absorb it, and after tanking on the information a few days came to a realization about what it actually said and what its underlying tenant was despite having been originally stated poorly.

I was additionally spurred to that realization by factors not relating to the evidence, but it is important to note that I haven’t actually changed my position at any point. It has been and will always be that the three races are approximately balanced*, and that any oddities in a player’s - or even a statistically aberrantly large group of players - is owing to some number of factors that are coincidentally common in that group.

* Balanced is not the same as well designed or fun to play. I’m always happy to rag on how the Disruptor and Widow Mine are garbage unfun units that I’d rather the game not have, but they’re not meaningfully imbalanced.

Well, that’s a different tack entirely since you’re talking about a tiny group of elites instead of the general population, but I understand how it’s related.

I do, actually, mildly agree with Miro’s statement on this: That the current pro Protoss players are equal to the average rest of the pro player population, but that both Terran and Zerg have extremely strong current representatives. Maxpax is the Protoss player, head-and-shoulders above, and he just refuses to participate in the relevant tournaments – and that’s a huge factor, because it means that one of the top five Protoss is basically eliminated in advance.

As an example, take a 16-player tournament: Top 5 representatives of each race, plus an extra. For Protoss, you then immediately lose one of your best, and that means there’s either two ‘extras’, or your new Protoss player is likely below the rest.

So it only seems logical that Protoss’d be under-represented in winners. To me, the thing that then cinches it is that the Disruptor is a horribly designed unit that Protoss is extremely dependent on in a lot of situations - victory depends on enemy mis-micro, and that increasingly does not happen as skill rises.

Or, without it, the Carrier, which is extremely heavily countered by Corruptors, Vipers, Thors, and Vikings. My pro-viewing experience has been that the Tempest simply doesn’t do the job despite its increased safety.

No, the statement’s likely, or find believable, and not once certain.

Because we didn’t do a proper survey of the player base, we can’t be certain.

And that’s just not true. Reasons were listed, and completely ignored or dismissed with no affair.

Please provide evidence for your claim. You have pulled it out of nothing and given no context for why you believe that.

Which, you have claimed, is not what you do:

Ergo, please give me the evidence that drew you to this conclusion. Hold yourself to the standard.

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No not at all. Still you are trying to dodge: You said analysing clusters is dumb and you cant get any meaningful information out of that (you actually more or less state that the only useful information in data is getting the average).

I gave you source that studying clusters is pretty important. Yet you somehow dont talk about it or even neglect it.

I dont say WHY the players choose their races. A) I give you plausible reasons why they might choose something (backed it up by psychology, advertisement and sc2 lead designers) B) I say thats a statistical influence. Meaning ofc NOT ALL players will choose xyz race and not all of that race have chosen that race because of the reasons i mentioned. You fail to understand that i dont make general statements. I say its a possible reason for some players, meaning it has a statistical impact.

You even used chatgpt and chatgpt also told you: hey players preference is pretty important. Somehow terran is the most popular race and YOU are the only one who neglects possible reasons.

Do you think its coincidence that terran has the most players, the lowest average mmr and by faaaar the most players in low league (i mean ofc lowest mmr more or less directly concludes more players in low league), most familiar design with us as humans or as a faction to other rts and is the tutorial campaign race and that 90% of the plot is about humans in an alien war? Is it coincidence that sc was actually supposed to be warhammer (and in warhammer spacemarines are also the most popular “race”) which is basically a ripoff of alien / alien vs predator.

Do you think i just made that all up ? Do you think this is all just a huge coincidence and has no influence on the target audience?

And by that i have shown to you that the average casual player and the average skilled player achieves exactly the same mmr with terran. Not more or not less. The only huge difference is that there are far more low skilled players for terran. We can discuss possible reasons why that is. For example, as you say it might be because of difficulty. But then again i dont know why the difficulty should be responsible for terran lacking in low level play but not high level play. And i just dont understand why the most familiar race to every rts and as a conceptional design that even gets explained pretty well in campaign should be the hardest to grasp for beginners.

So yeah, i believe, and many here also, that its because terran is attracting low level players more often because its beginner friendly (similiar to other rts, simliar to design, similiar to us; its the campaign race). THAT HOWEVER doesnt mean its ultimatly harder or easier for skilled or pro level players.

You can more or less force protoss to be dominating the pro scene by “minor” changes. The nydus swarmhost patch in 2019 was “minor” in terms of actual changes. For example its not like they gave zerglings like double the hp or something. In those terms its minor. These minor changes did not let zerg representation in general spike through the roof. They didnt even let them spike them in grandmasters through the roof. On top pro level however it changed everything.

Meaning you can force protoss to be the winning race but you cant really force the population to change this drastically (ofc completly overbuffing protoss would lead to shifts to some extend in the playerbase, but same with the 2019 buff thingy…)

Okay, finding information out of clusters is fine. That’s not at what I was arguing against. I was arguing against splitting the players by the independent variable then using that to determine the subjective reasonings of 100+ thousand players.

Because it’s not a claim I believe. You seem to think it’s plausible (while I disagree, I can at least appreciate that you’re being logically consistent, unlike Sentry) that the disparity in Tournament wins is organic. I actually think Protoss is quite weak at the higher levels.

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Read again. I specifically said that i did not do that.

Cool. At least you agree to the most basic thing there is…hurray.

You said this was clustering and you said its wrong and now you say clustering is fine. Again: what is it exactly? Make up your mind.

Using the clusters to determine subjective reasonings of 100s of thousands of people is beyond moronic.

Luckily i didnt do it then :smiley:

Yeah, and that’s why I tend to have discussions with you. You see evidence, opinion open to changing.

Also, logically consistent:

It’s highly related, but you said to me in a prior post something to the effect that you don’t think it’s likely caused by any sort of imbalance. The only statistical anomaly that you detected was that 40% of GM is Protoss? If so, that makes your logic at least follow a pattern.

This is a good point, but it’s not just this year. We’re talking years of Protoss players under-performing. While I’d be remiss to deny that skill isn’t a factor in that, taken as a whole I think it’s likely that they’re pretty severely disadvantaged in a tournament setting (kind of the way Terran is disadvantaged in the non-GSL tournament setting, come to think of it).

With Sentry it’s always “any stat that benefits my race is clearly inconsequential, any time Protoss is disadvantaged is a crime against humanity, contact Hague .”

There was No discussion about protoss in this topic. You brought it Up by changing the subject. It is Not about protoss at all. At Best it was the comparison between terran in zerg on average. What you dont understand is that “being hard” and being underpowered are 2 very seperate Statements. Protoss is Most likely too weak in top pro Level (but protoss Player below that dont lose because of that)…at least that is what top pro Players say.

You are the one who is extremely Defensive about your Race that you are playing.

So far you havent provided any Proof or evidence that Low AVG mmr means Harder to Play Race. Please provide at least Something for the Love of god.

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A person with 69k games played hasn’t perfected the 4:25 widow mine drop in TvP.

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Through various advanced scientific means I have used throughout the years, I have proven with empirical evidence that Terran is the most OP race. I am currently writing a research paper on this, but the basis of my arguement stems from my 50 Hellion by 10 minutes strategy that I have used to go 100 - 0 in Bronze 1 for the last couple years.

Protoss and Zerg have no reasonable counters to such a strategy.

Like I said, I have a research paper on the way for more evidence and logic behind my findings. More to come!

Now that’s a name I’ve not seen in a long time.

No. That comment is about you, individually. You’re completely 100% committed to Terran being “not harder,” fine. You have mind reading abilities to understand the subjective motivations of 100,000 people. I have the ability to determine the motivations of less than 50.

It’s a direct comparison. Those two thoughts cannot rationally occupy the same mind.

Except i Stated multiple Times that i dont do that. You cannot grasp a single Argument we Made yet we came Up with around a dozen of Arguments.

Those 2 are very different statements. One behaviour can directly be changed by changing Things in Balance. The Other is Something we See for about 13 years. Terran has Always been popular in lower ranks but they Always Had a good representation in Higher leagues. But some time ago protoss actually Had a good representation in pro Scene. Those 2 Statements are nothing alike.

You Come Up with the wildest Takes man…saying Things Like Equal BMI means Equal appearance or that men and women wouldnt have a different height If we categorize people in taller or Shorter or lately you Said analysing Clusters is stupid. You Just Come Up with a completly moronic Statement without any Proof or explanation. And guess what ? In Most cases you are completly wrong

Well obviously. If Same Person cant be above in a scoreboard vs a protoss that builds 10 Pylons in a row then certainly He wont perfect widow mine drop after 69k Games :stuck_out_tongue:

A friend of Mine (pun intended) would lose 300 mmr in tvp if widow mine drop would be banned.

I have learnt the error in my ways. If you can’t beat them, join them. In my latest adventure I ran into Idra.
h ttps://imgur.com/a/e3UCSrL Imagine thinking the sentry is underpowered.

You’ve stated that you don’t, but you do… You have no real evidence for believing why you think these tens of thousands of people do what they do. You just cling to whatever explanations will make you feel better.

That’s why you presented evidence, twice, that these players were casual or newer. Because those would’ve been your smoking gun. Both times that gun went off right in your face.

I don’t see you providing anything . The only thing you contribute is moving the goal post . Also I know you have several accounts in this thread posting the same thing blah blah blah and reporting users who disagree with you .

You… realise that he literally has only posted under Sentry the entire thread, right?

No, he really hasn’t. I don’t think you know what that means.

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Oh look you signed on with a different account ? I didn’t even say anything to you yet you respond right when I reply. So Miro and Sentry are the same users huh

I can’t tell if you are legitimately so utterly lacking in your general brain capacity that you are wholly, utterly incapable of discerning even the most basic typographical/linguistical differences in the way that Sentry and I post, such that genuinely believe that, or if you’re trolling me.

I’ve been accused of being so many different people at this point (Sentry, Terranic, Eliwan and several others) that I might as well be almost everyone on the forums at this point, including you. It’s hilarious, and frankly quite pathetic.

As I said in the past - in this very thread, I might add, after you accused me of being Eliwan! - I have exactly one alternate account; it’s also called Miro because it was my SEA account back before they merged the SEA and NA servers. I literally haven’t logged into it in over a year, and frankly only use it if I’m playing completely different styles to my normal gameplay.

I have no reason to hide behind an alternate account, and no desire to do so.

You just don’t like being called out when you’re wrong - which, face it, you are.

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