So, this is the 3rd topic recently I’ve started in looking deeper at some very specific mechanic in coop. There has long been discussion regarding Fenix’s P2’s Kaldalis’s damage output. The saying goes that apparently "Kaldalis’s attack animation reaches a ingame max cap, thus preventing him from reaching his potential maximum damage".
So I’ve done some tests on Maguro’s Oblivion Express. The basics of test is as follows:
Kaldalis is created along with 7 additional Legionnaires (3 supply x 7 = 21 total supply to allow Tactical Data Web reach max at 20 supply).
Empowered Blades research prior since this is where TDW affects the damage output the most.
Avenging Protocol is allowed to terminate, as this would affect the attack speed, but I will discuss this later.
Finally, Kaldalis is to attack expansion rock (both mains to minimize timing misreading from myself).
The timings are then rechecked in replay function ingame.
Here’s what I found out:
With Attack Speed Mastery, Kaldalis does 18 dmg x 2 @ 0.62 cooldown, hosting 200SP/400HP. Taking 35sec per rock.
Compared with HP/SP Mastery, Kaldalis does 18 dmg x 2 @ 0.8 cooldown, hosting 320SP/640HP. Taking 45sec per rock.
Those are practically useless since no Empowered Blade’s cleave damage is in there, the dps is poor at best .
Okay so here’s with Empowered Blades, both +90 damage per attack. It took 5sec for Attack Mastery vs 7sec for HP/SP Mastery. This is a difference of 400DPS vs 285.7DPS. And for curiosity sake, even at 6sec, it is 333.3DPS for Attack Mastery.
How does Avenging protocol change this? With Attack Mastery, attack speed is reduced further by -0.21 to a new 0.41 (vs old 0.62). Without, the attack speed is reduced further by -0.27 to a new 0.53 (vs old 0.80).
This has been re-tested - See further comment
So unfortunately I did not further test the actual ingame DPS with AP active, as it is difficult to maintain then time it all. So there is a chance that the overlapping difference of 0.62 (Attack Speed Mastery, no Avenging Protocol) to 0.53 (HP/SP Mastery, with Avenging Protocol) that the said animation limitation occurs.
This is simply to point out that the tested DPS is definitely higher with Attack Speed Mastery, as one would expect on paper. The question of maintaining said DPS however is a much larger and player dependent issue.
Arguably speaking, both players who blindly throws the champion at enemies, the bulkier Kaldalis may out last the other. Since the DPS is 29% less (285.7/400), it takes about 3 additional seconds to justifiably reach the same DPS total.
Moreover, the type of enemy and their position has different HP values. So having 400DPS against 1000 marines makes no difference compared to 285.7DPS against the same 1000 marines… in fact, in this silly hypothetical, the latter likely will deal more damage.
Hope my nerdy investigation helped shedding some light
So I’ve dived a little further today regarding this particular possible “limitation”. Here’s what I did:
Similarly made 9 Legionnaires.
Killed Kaldalis with said group to proc Avenging Protocol.
This is done under Attack Speed Mastery, so with AP the Atk Spd is 0.62 - 0.21 = 0.41 (or so per the in-game number description).
Killed each main expansion rock (each at 2k HP, 0 armor) with Kaldalis to small repeatability.
So the theory goes that there’s animation limitation, then if this is true we should not see a noticeable difference in the 0.41 (fasted attack speed reach-able). The results:
Kaldalis in my review of the replay was able to kill each rock at somewhere between 4-5sec. I can only say that because the first rock exploded definitely before 5sec (but real close) while the second one exploded definitely prior to the in-game timer reached that 5th second count. So I can only conclude the following:
1. There is a clear DPS increase by using Attack Speed Mastery, which tbh is nothing new. Even if we evaluate it at 4.5sec, the DPS changes from 400 => 444, the same considerations would apply from the end of my OP.
2. If there was/is animation limitation on the back-swings of each attack, then perhaps it limits the 4.5sec theoretical time from a possible 4sec? Either way, this particular "myth" seems to have not much merit (especially in any practical application... at least via my testing).
You can probably get better results by using AP+attack speed mastery without Empowered blades. (so the rocks last longer and give you more detailed time)
I took a look at the upload date and it is fairly recent, to rule out outdated comparison. I have a few points of confusion on the video that differ from my own tests.
At 3:23, you can see Kaldalis’s Weapon Speed is 0.62. This aligns to my own test when a player chooses Champion Attack Speed Mastery.
Then if you look at the buff, or the reduced speeds, it says -0.49. I’m not sure how he is able to achieve this. My own test, the only things that affect ‘Weapon Speed’ is mastery at -0.18 (from 0.80 default) and Avenging Protocol at -0.21, granting at most a final Weapon Speed of 0.41. He somehow achieved a -0.49 (from already 0.62) for a final of 0.12-0.13 (he displays at Attack Speed).
He says the Attack Speed is calculated as follows:
Take 1 divide by Weapon Speed, 1/0.8 = 1.25 True weapon speed.
Then apply the buff %, 30% mastery to it 1.25 x 1.30 = 1.625
Finally reconvert back with 1 divide, 1/1.625 = 0.615 (0.62) Attack Speed
This all seems true and fine, so we should be able to do below:
If we reversed his equation… with 0.12 Attack Speed listed
1/0.12 = 8.333
Recall 1.25 True weapon speed = 1/0.8
1/0.8 x 8.333 then equals buff % = 10.41625, then 10.42 - 1 = 9.42 or 942% attack speed buff. WTF is this coming from?
He says he has full TDW and AP with only 4 Legionnaires. As far as I recall, my test required 7 total x 3 supply each for 21 supply total, in order to over take the 20supply max of both TDW and AP. TDW only affects the added damage to Empowered Blade (cleave), which he also doesn’t have researched and adds at max +90dmg per attack.
And that makes sense even on an intuitive level. +90 x 2atks + 18 x 2atks at rate of 0.41 = 216 / 0.41 = 527 of per weapon cycle (aka weapon speed) and not DPS.
As an aside, my DPS is measured (with hand-eye error for sure) via in-game destruction of a 2000HP destructible rock. Not to say it is better at all but it is clear if anyone else repeats this test that at 20 supply worth of AP and TDW, the DPS is definitely highest.
I invite you (and anyone else) to test it in-game. Definitely not what I’m seeing. Cuz for me to explain it all while it is all posted… is basically pointless.
In-game only other displayed change to weapon speed is Avenging Protocol, which is -0.21 for Attack Speed Mastery, -0.27 for HP/SP Mastery.
In-game fastest displayed Weapon Speed for Kaldalis at 20 supply worth (7 Legionnaires) of TDW and AP is 0.41 (0.8 - 0.18 - 0.21). If you don’t know how I got that, then not sure what to tell ya.
And I’m not sure what you’re getting at with this at all… here:
This is about P2 (see topic). So if Sprite’s intention is about how P3 reaches an animation limit, then I guess further tests is needed.
That said though, P3 is hinging on Avenging Protocol - a mechanism that requires Kaldalis to be reborn (ie. dies to maintain). Choosing HP/SP Mastery is counter-intuitive. Not to say it is wrong since AP lasts for 20sec, so it might be worth that bulk investment.
In reviewing this, it does explain perhaps why he had 4 Legionnaires. If 100% is also applied to supply count, then 4 x 3 x 2 = 24 (vs 3 x 3 x 2 = 18, which wouldn’t be enough).
Sparking interests from people keep talking about P3 Kaldalis
Here’s my test yet again… done with Attack Speed Mastery:
Made 7 Legionnaires, to ensure both Tactical Data Web and Avenging Protocol would benefit maximally.
Killed the main expansion rock.
Killed the other expansion rock with Empowered Blades.
Basic information:
Kaldalis P3 has 18dmg x 2atks at 0.8 Weapon Speed.
Attack Speed Mastery: 0.8 Weapon Speed is reduced to 0.62, same as OP or in any other prestige.
Avenging Protocol at maximum only reduced Weapon Speed by -0.31, this nets at most 0.31 for Weapon Speed displayed in game.
Per the above video’s calculation for “Attack Speed” reversed to calculate %buff increased in attack speed total = 1/0.8 x 1/0.31 = 1.25 x 3.23 = 4.03 or 303% attack speed increase. ==> So perhaps this suggests that P3 isn't functioning properly at all. One can interpret this as 100% increased effectiveness only adds to a total of 300% (200% AP + 100%prestige), but then how the math works out to that additional 3% is a mystery
Without Empowered Blade, it took 24sec to kill off main rock. This is 83.3DPS. Do note that 4sec of 24sec is without AP as it only lasts 20sec and is too difficult to quantify by stopping the test midway.
With TDW Empowered Blade, it took 8sec only to kill off. This is 250DPS.
At least per my tests, I cannot reach a Weapon Speed of 0.12. Nor is the in-game DPS capped at ~100. I'd like to highlight that these are observed within the game, see my test method. So P3 Kaldalis at its best attack damage and speed boosts... [1] does not reach a DPS cap due to animation (calculation: 18 x 2 + {39TDW EB dmg} = 75 / 0.31 = 241, dang close to 250 observed. [2] The DPS total of P3 is less than P2 Kaldalis simply due to the difference in Empowered Blade applied.
So this is entirely a P3 issue. Exactly where is the break point, I suspect someone with much better editor operation can find out. One thing to realize is that the major contributor is still AP, ie. factor of 5x (see above calculation). So even if the player chose HP/SP mastery, this issue still occurs. What you're losing out is definitely the extra 120SP/200HP not gained from said choice.
For Kaldaris, the delay between his 2 attacks is the bottleneck which as specified in the video is 0.28s. His weapon can’t attack faster than this.
Put into calculation.
In normal condition without AS mastery and non-P3.
we have 0.8 : 0.28 = ~2.857
=> His max attack speed is 285.7%
=> 285.7% - 100% = 185.7% will be the required attack speed bonus to max out his attack speed.
This will equal to 4 dead of Kaldaris or 6 dead of normal Legionnaire but Kaldaris dying 4 times seem to be cheaper to achieve max AS. If it’s P3, you will require less dead to get that number.
Warbringer also has this max AS problem because it has to wait for the visual effect to finish but i don’t have the solid number but i guess it will be somewhere between 100-150% AS bonus around 2-3 colossus dead.
Fun fact, it seems that Warbringer and Clorarion dead give less avenging protocol bonus than Colossus and Carrier’s dead. Champion give 50% bonus AS but normal unit dead give 10% per their supply cost. Carrier and Colossus cost 6 supply => their bonus is 60% vs 50% of the champion.
I originally thought so as well, but after testing (my final test for P2). The full buff results in a Weapon Speed of 0.21, where my observed damage 667DPS matches fairly closely to theoretical damage 643DPS.
So I thought, if it’s user-observation error then it might make sense if the limit was 0.22 maybe 0.23. The difference from 0.21 and 0.28 is quite large and would/should give a much great difference in DPS (instead of the 643 to 667 recorded).
Also, if we take another example of P3 with Mastery and Empowered Blade. The calculation using the 0.28 cap should be:
[18 x 2 + 39] / 0.28 = 268DPS (matches quite close to my observed 286DPS)
So this leads me to believe there’s perhaps a bit more to it than that. The reason being if I calculated using the P2 data with Mastery and Empowered Blade:
[18 x 2 + 99] / 0.28 = 482DPS (yet, my observed test reaching 0.21 clearly reaches at a minimum 667DPS)
That’s a 667 - 482 = 185DPS difference… way too large for reading/timing error. I don't know, just some simple observations made throughout testing it all. I definitely know that it can be error prone, being human and all. So if someone with a better understanding can explain that part, it'd be great.
Something about those numbers does not add up. I ran several calculations back and forth with different values to see if there is any explanation. There haven’t been any plausible conclusion.
Will run a test tomorrow then. Must be missing something in the calculation
The animation cap would be
P2
(18+99)x2 / 0.28 sec = 835 DPS
(only if you actually max out AP…which it seems you didn’t)
P3
(18+39)x2 / 0.28 = 407 DPS
(only needs a little bit of AP to max out)
and if you look at your original test with EB.
each attack does (18+99)x2=234 damage. so 9 attacks to destroy 2000 hp rocks
which means 7.2 seconds (or 5.5 with mastery)…exactly matching your first test.
So if the max cap by theory is at 0.28, and per your calculated theoretical damage at 0.28 cap is 835. Then why is it not that number in DPS?
So in-game, when I reach 0.21 (which you’re saying is 0.28 capped). Then why isn’t my output at 835DPS per you but rather at 667DPS per real observation.
Basically, I’ve reached the required supposed cap in speed yet my DPS isn’t anywhere close to your theoretical DPS. You see my confusion here?
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