Well yeah… why else would I be asking this otherwise? Lol.
Avenging Protocol gives you 50% per re-incarnation, up to 200%. So 4 gives you max. The math is…
1 / [1.25 x 1.3 x 3] = 0.21 both calculated and displayed in game.
Yet, when you take Kaldalis at full TDW EB, and full AP and attack rock. It takes 3sec.
So why is the damage 2000 / 3 = 667DPS and not your theoretical 842DPS?
So you’re saying “oh perhaps it’s a reading error, 2.5sec is easy to mistake for 3sec when all you can read are whole seconds”. So then why the following?
P3 with EB and full AP:
[(18 + 39) x 2] / 0.28 (cap) = 407DPS
So then it should take 5sec to kill the rock right?
Yet again, in my test (refer up if you need to), it took 7sec to kill the rock.
Because it’s actually 2000/2.4 =800+ dps which is about 1/2 a second error (well under measuring it in game). (when you get to small times a small error is big)
AP is different if there are blank shells or Kaldalis killed.
You haven’t explained it is what I’m saying. Happy you’re trying to for my understanding but go into a game and try it.
I would have thought EB should apply to each attack too, cuz why wouldn’t it? However, based on my test data and theoretical calculation, it doesn’t add that.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. I will just be wondering is all. No difference now versus a few posts up haha.
That 5.05 is exactly what I’m telling you is off. Why is my test data, actual data of 0.12 speed (but really 0.28 cap speed) taking 7sec to kill rock when it should be 5.05sec? So either game is lying to me personally or the equation is wrong…
But if it gets any longer, P3 basically get next no benefit. That would be unfortunate and sad lol.
Cuz in my testing, P3 with mastery and only 1 AP stack, the Weapon Speed becomes 0.62-0.31 or total 0.31 as well. If the cap is longer than 0.28, then players are getting only 1 double effective prestige stack… but not the actual full AP 4-stacks at all as a benefit.
It does seem to work with an animation limit of ~0.41 and AP timing out in 20 seconds. …which would be pretty bad (it would mean P3 isn’t really helpful for Kaldalis. (other champions would have different animation limits so might benefit more from P3.
A solid way to test it is with P3 no EB, make sure to have a lot of Legionnaires… and keep killing them while Kaldalis is attacking the rock so AP never is lost.
(because if AP wears off in 10 seconds, then the 25 second test still works with an animation delay of 0.28 sec…which is what the editor suggests…and the 5 v 7 seconds would just be ~1 second error on each side.)
I used a Maguro map (the Temple map) to test so i don’t know how close it is to real coop map but the result is very consistent.
Test in P0, P2, P3
Without Empowered Blade
At 0.8s weapon cooldown the dps is 96 across all prestiges
At 0.13s (UI displayed value) weapon cooldown of P3 the dps is 96
At 0.21s (UI displayed value) weapon cooldown of P0 and P2 the dps is 96
With Empowered Blade but without tactical data web (39 x2 EP and 18 x2 attack)
At 0.13s or 0.21s (UI displayed value) weapon cooldown the dps is 304.5 across all prestiges
With or without attack speed mastery the dps does not change at full avenging protocol stacks.
What i can see are
1st conclusion
Empowered Blade has no cooldown, it adds damage for each instance of attack Kaldalis does which are 2 instances.
2nd conclusion
At 0.8s weapon cooldown, the dps is mostly aligned with the expected dps which is 45 (expected) vs 44 (observed)
3rd conclusion
Using all the dps result 44, 96 and 304.5. I calculated a max weapon cooldown of 0.375s the same across all prestiges and across all level of damage.
4th conclusion
The cause of this 0.375s is unknown. I checked all the value i could find including the random delay (-0.0625 to 0.125), animation backswing (0.5s) and animation damage point (0s). There is no identified cause for this minimal weapon cooldown.
If the 0.28s delay between attack instances are true, then there is a 0.095s further delay which i have no idea where they came from.
This makes no sense since 18 x 2 / 0.8 = 45DPS. Is this a typo?
Furthermore, how did you arrive at 96DPS? Your results are eerily similar to the video result above, so if your test method is simply reading another displayed value then that’s pointless.
The results I have been discussing are tested value against 2k HP rock. It is for the very reason that so the tester can observe real damage output rather than a “told damage output” by game. It is that very issue that’s in question right now.
If I read further on, your data with Empowered Blade but no TDW is also wrong.
TDW affects EB and not basic attack
EB only add 9 dmg without TDW
TDW adds a total of 30 max to P3, total 39.
TDW adds a total of 90 max to P2, total 99.
None of what you mentioned there lines up. What’s more is Krik and I have been discussing if EB applies to both attacks. While we agree it make sense and should do so on each of the 2 attacks, my tests clearly indicate a discrepancy in DPS. And it seems (to me at least), EB applies only per Weapon Cycle, rather than per Attack.
Lastly, your comment about AP. The math doesn’t work out at all.
Without Attack Speed Mastery P2:
1 / [1 / 0.8 x 3] = 1 / [1.25 x 3] = 0.27
With Attack Speed Mastery P2:
1 / [ 1 / 0.8 x 3 x 1.3] = 1 / 4.875 = 0.21
Both of those values can be seen in the displayed value in-game.
Similarly if I did the math for P3, it’ll come out 0.16 and 0.12.
What we are trying to figure out is exactly where the cap actually is. 0.28 is the displayed and proposed value in the video above. However, the actual testing DPS with max buff deviates from that.
What I can hypothesize from your test, which isn’t much different than the video is this:
96DPS / 39 = 2.67
1 / 2.67 = 0.375
your then calculated difference of 0.375 - 0.28 proposed = 0.095
If there’s a dual attack delay (ie on the 2nd swing, then perhaps there can be a similar delay for 1st swing of 0.095)
Still, while that may add to new information, it doesn’t explain anything I’ve said regarding the discrepancy so far. Appreciate the effort though.
Ah yes. That one is a typo mistake. It should be 44.
Now that i reread what i were writing i realize that i messed up a big deal of the results.
I get P3 Tactical data web to max bonus at 39. Then i ordered Kaldalis to attack the rock 1 time (which is easy to stop him because he attack every 0.8s) and the rock lost 114 health.
If EB does not apply to both instances of attack, that number should be 18x2 + 39 = 75 and not 114.
No i did not mention the DPS for attack speed mastery at full avenging protocol because at full avenging protocol there is no difference in dps from when you don’t use the mastery.
Pretty much but i don’t know what cause that though i did take out most of the suspected innocents that caused that.
Like I said, appreciate the effort but we are still left in mystery.
See this test:
Note first off, that’s an observed test. So it actually took 7sec+/-0.5sec to account for human reading error.
That’s with full TDW EB and AP. So the math I want it to be (and what Krik has also suggested is):
(18 + 39) x 2 / 0.12 = 950DPS
But we are told caps at 0.28 (not 0.12)
(18 + 39) x 2 / 0.28 = 407DPS
This suggests to kill a 2000HP rock, it should take 5sec.
Refer back to the quote, yet the observed DPS is 2000 / 6.5 = 308 DPS to 2000 / 7.5 = 267DPS.
So where did those 2sec go? I can make counting error, but 2sec seem quite the margin for error, right?
Neither 267@7.5sec or 308@6.5sec matches the 407DPS of 2xEB applied, not even close to account for error margins.So let’s take a look at if we apply 1 x EB only:
(18 x 2 + 39) / 0.28 = 267DPS
2000 / 7 = 285DPS vs 2000 / 7.5 = 267DPS
So clearly, there might have been a reading error on my part - instead of 7sec, it likely took 7.5sec. Moreover, we can also hypothesize that at perhaps close to the cap of 0.28, EB is only able to be applied once per Weapon Cycle (per 2 attacks). So maybe it functions differently, changing from 2xEB to 1xEB as the speed approaches cap 0.28.
Then we should also observe this in slower speeds that don’t reach the cap at all. So let’s do some calculations with 1 x EB applied.
Similarly, that’s an observed 8sec +/- 0.5sec. Again, important to note.
That’s P3 Full TDW but 1 stack AP. The math is:
1 / (1/0.8 (default) x 1.3 (mastery) x 2 (1 stack AP P3)) = 1 / (1.25 x 1.3 x 1.5) = 0.31
(18 + 39) x 2 / 0.31 = 368DPS <== again, way off to observed DPS.
2000 / 8 = 250DPS to 2000 / 8.5 = 235DPS these are the observed DPS
As you can see, even at speed 0.31, above the 0.28 cap, EB still applies only once per weapon cycle.
That’s why I am more inclined to think the actual damage per sec equation is:
(Dmg x Attack + EB) / Weapon Speed
So, for anyone who’s still following this topic lol. That seems to clarify the question how EB is applied, or how TDW affects damage - by applying only 1x as oppose to the assumed 2x, even though Kaldalis has 2 attacks per cycle.
However, it doesn’t answer the speed cap mystery that exists between P2 and P3. Knowing the true equation above, we should be able to calculate the exact theoretical DPS.
P2 with Mastery, full TDW EB, and full 4xAP:
1 / [1/0.8 (default) x 1.3 (mastery) x 3 (200%@full) ] = 0.21
[18 x 2 + 99 (p2 full TDW EB)] / 0.21 = 642DPS
[18 x 2 + 99 (p2 full TDW EB)] / 0.28 (cap) = 482DPS
Observed DPS is 2000HP / 3sec = 667DPS
As seen here, clearly in P2, even accounting for error margins, DPS of observed matches closely to our equation. What’s more though, since this is the case, the speed is clearly not capped at 0.28 (482DPS).
P3 with Mastery, full TDW EB, and full 4xAP:
1 / [1/0.8 (default) x 1.3 (mastery) x 5 (400%@full) ] = 0.12
[18 x 2 + 39 (p3 full TDW EB)] / 0.12 = 625DPS
[18 x 2 + 39 (p3 full TDW EB)] / 0.28 (cap) = 268DPS
Observed DPS is 2000HP / 7sec = 285DPS
As seen here, clearly in P3, even accounting for error margins, DPS of observed matches closely to our equation again. What’s different here, the cap is clearly matching with 0.28 @ 285DPS observed vs the theoretical 268DPS.
Why, why, why??
It still points to that P3 is entirely terrible, since Kaldalis is capped at a far lower DPS. Many of the other champion a.i. get limited benefit anyway. Some not at all basically AND at a lower TDW buff compared to P2.
i will suggest you rerun the 5s and the 7s test to see if it still persists.
Also i want to note that the way you are using human observation and dismissing claim from machine counting is very weird. Usually it’s the other way around.
Human observation requires much more test samples to achieve the same level of reliability in comparison to using machine.
Usually if there is a dispute between human observation and machine counting, the error mostly came from the human part since we do not have the precision of the machine.
Unless I misunderstood isn’t the issue that machine display seems wrong. If we could have actual machine counting/calculation that would be great, but the game doesn’t give us that data.
The weapon cooldown is true in every instance and in every calculation.
Kaldalis’s weapon cooldown is truly ~0.13s at P3 full avenging protocol + atk spd mastery and it’s ~0.21s at other prestiges with full avenging protocol + atk spd mastery.
But weapon cooldown is not the only value that dictates how many time an unit attacks in a second and thus, does not truly reflect the true dps.
Also human counting is not as precise as computer counting and calculation.
The script to calculate dps in Maguro map gives out very persistent results and i came up with the 0.375s not just from one calculation but also from calculation at different level of EB. Meanwhile, the same thing can’t be said to his test where he didn’t even agree and establish even the basic that EB involves in every attack instance instead of every weapon cooldown.
When weapon cooldown down to below 0.2s human counting start to generate much more errors than normal and the error can went over 50%. Using results from this method of testing to dispute against something like a script calculation when it has already put out more consistent results is irrational.
More importantly, with a units that have the damage >100 per attack like Kaldalis with an weapon cooldown as small as <0.5s even a 0.2s off in determining the rock killing time can offtrack the dps more than 100 points.
The UI isn’t displaying the correct number… if you can’t understand that then you’re not even understanding the problem. Correct number is the true value, and that is quite literally what the video and my post is trying to convey. The true value in the video for speed cap is 0.28 while in-game you can see “displayed values” of 0.12, 0.16, 0.21, etc. The discussion is that these displayed values are quite wrong when you apply it in-game by testing it in-game, which I have done...
Weapon Speed or Weapon Cooldown is exactly how many times an unit attacks in a second. A value of 0.12 means every 0.12sec it takes once. So in 1sec… 1 / 0.12 = 8.3 attacks made of whatever damage the unit has. That’s why DPS is calculated by Damage / Weapon Speed = 100 / 0.12 = 833DPS. This is a basic concept and calculation, you gotta get that basic first.
We’re all aware of M’s ingenuity but that’s the problem. You’re blindly trusting the script number and literally discarding tests as “Fearr your eyes are clearly bad”. I welcome you to take 5min of time, go into a game, let Kaldalis chop away at a rock. Then see for yourself ‘how bad my eyes are’… A discussion of "I simply don't trust your data" is a pointless discussion without your own data to compliment it.
Quite so lol, don’t let the nerdiness mask anything. It is very intuitive by just playing the game.
P2 Kaldalis runs wilder than P3 Kaldalis.
Even without all the math, any player would have discerned that.
so i was wondering lately. is it smart to not research any shield or armor but attack only? the idea is to get your units killed more frequently so ur champions go more berserk. in late game im floatings mass mins/gas anyway
Think you’re mistaking EB… Empowered Blade is the research-able ability for Kaldalis. Tactical Data Web, up to 20supply, can be applied to EB. This adds upwards of 90dmg/20supply + 9base damage in P2 for a total of 99Dmg EB. Compared to P3, it is only 30dmg/20supply + 9base for a total of 39Dmg EB.
I’m not sure why you’re so insistent on this… getting trapped in who must be “more right” perhaps?
The 2000HP at 18 x 2 / 0.8 is done under the following conditions as P3:
No Attack Speed Mastery, hence weapon speed is at default 0.8.
No Empowered Blade, hence damage is only 18 x 2.
No AP stacks at all, so weapons speed is still at 0.8.
18 x 2 / 0.8 = 45DPS.
2000HP / 45DPS = 44.4sec ~or 45secThat’s my OP test you’re referring to.
The 2000HP that took 7sec is not from OP at all. It is from post 12:
This is done under P3 as well.
This is done under Attack Speed Mastery, weapon speed 0.62.
This is done with full 4x AP P3 stacks, weapon speed final 0.12.
The 7sec result was done with full TDW EB, or 9 + 30 = 39dmg EB.
(18 x 2 + 39) / 0.12 = 625DPS ==> 2000HP / 625DPS = 3.2sec So no…
(18 x 2 + 39) / 0.28 cap speed = 267DPS ==> 2000 / 267 = 7.5sec
I’ve made and remade this point not to “prove you wrong” but to show that the equation is functioning differently.
If your entire purpose here isn’t to discuss and try to find out why that is, then there’s really no point… cuz at this point I think I’ve repeated enough…
This is what I kind of mentioned in OP. That is player preference to choose either one because let’s say this:
P2 at max you deal 667DPS, but if you can only survive 1sec, you’ve only dealt 667dmg.
P2 using HP/SP mastery, let’s say you’re doing 250DPS, but with the extra bulk + armor/shield armor you can survive 3sec to the same group of enemies. Then you’ve dealt a total of 750dmg.
While the speed of damage dealt isn’t the same, what’s more important depends on execution vs target. Is it important that all 20 zerglings die to 99dmg EB cleave with a 667DPS Kaldalis? Vs the same 20 zerglings that die to 99dmg EB cleave with a 250DPS Kaldalis? No, not really.
Similarly, is it important to cut down a Dominator Hybrid in 3sec vs 10sec? Probably.
Is it gamebreaking? Nah, xD, this is coop brutal after all, easy to win.
why should i care if kaldaris lives more then 1sec? i have endless kaldaris and the more frequently they die, the more uptime of avanger protocol
**imo keeping the max uptimve of AV on kalaris is the goal to achive with fenix p2. but also you want to have at least 3 more champion ai`s with also full benefit of tactical datanet. the challange of keeping my macro up to the fullest while simultainosly keeping AV up is beyond my (and i guess most players) skill. furthermore you have overmins. so i dont think it makes any sense to invest into defensive stuff
7 sec was the hpsp mastery test from the OP. So EB/TDW is added twice.
also 5 seconds test from the OP
2000/5=(18+99)x2/0.62
The issue is with the animation speed limit (which only affects AP attack speed not attack damage).
Apparently it is 0.375 (which is consistent with all tests if AP times out in 20 seconds)
