Normal pvp builds do not stop cannon rushes, otherwise they would almost never work.
I have an idea but I am not sure how well it would work out. It would be to reduce the range of the cannon until say the cyber core is done. This would make rushing much weaker as you could reduce the range so it can’t even hit the top of the ramp, or if it could, would not have the range to protect the forward pylon. I do like the cannon as a defensive building, and use it quite a bit when trying to stop a rush. If the cannon was stuck behind the gate then forge, all you would have to rely on slow zealots as the only defense.
What rush do you use cannons to help stop, but you don’t already have a gateway before forge? I like to use cannons to help stop proxy rax marines, but I always have a gateway first (it’s not like I cancel gateway upon seeing a guy is rushing something).
Sometimes, I also use cannons to help defend vs certain Zerg builds, early in the game. But, again… there is no viable defense that I know of that involves making a forge before a gateway is done.
Its not that I don’t have a gate before the forge, it just hard for me to stop rushes with zealots alone. If I have to wait for the gate to finish, then build the forge, then start building cannons, the cyber core should be close to being done by the time I have my first cannon.
Against Zerg I still like to forge fast expand. It seems every time I just try to defend a fast expand with just gateway the lings attack a building that away from the zealot and I am afraid to move him out of the wall, and if it was a 12 pool then I am sure to lose without the cannon to get the lings off the building.
I am all for getting rid of cannon rushing, as I think that is a really dumb way to play, and I lose to it about 75% of the time. I just like my safety cannons and just wish I could have those while not allowing for them to be used offensively in the beginning.
BUMP. We should start a petition to get cannon rushing removed, at least from ladder. SEND EVERY CANNON RUSHER BACK TO BRONZE, INCLUDING PRINTF. It is absolutely pathetic that players like PRINTF and TurkeyDano are GM. The argument from the balance team is probably that cannon rushing adds build variety, but they achieve the opposite of this because 75% of PvPs are cannon rushes!! Cannon rushing is fine to watch in a pro match when it happens once or twice, but it has no place on the ladder. Even worse than cannon rush is cannon rush followed by Voidray/Batteries; this is the game you want us to play??? The game is completely dictated by the cannon rusher; if he cannon rushes you and goes Voidray/Battery, you have to do same thing, there is no other way to play it; there are players who use this strategy exclusively because the only counter is to do the same thing better than them, except they have a head start because they open forge and have practiced this scenario 1000’s of times; there is no skill involved because it is impossible to know what’s really going on (how many Batteries are being made, did he expo behind it (you’re trapped in your main); etc.)
I’m pretty sure nothing would change. I think you have to cut probes to even have 150 minerals to make a forge before your gateway is done (at least I do, as I double gas).
I chrono out zealots against Terran marine all-ins and attack with a few probes, along side it, to help stall to get cannons up. I don’t rely on micro, either. I just rely on scouting early enough to slow it down (kill scv and have zealot attacking their proxy location soon enough to slow it down more).
It’s one of those things where if you scout it in time, then you should be able to survive until the cannons are up. If you scout it late, then, well… you couldn’t make a forge before gateway was done, anyways.
I make my gateway at my natural. It makes it a tad easier to slow down the push, but makes it more awkward/harder, at times, when relying on cannons. Trade off.
Against Zerg, you just eventually make an adept. Unless you’re playing cyber forest and a guy 12 pooled, you should win more times than not.
In HotS against 2 gate proxy in-base, I would defend with cannons. A walled off cannon on top of nexus. So, I totally get hating defending early stuff with just zealots.
But forge expand is a really bad build in LotV – especially if you’re not cannon rushing. That build would cost you a lot more wins than it would net you by making defending “x” easier on you. Thus, just kinda have to “suck it up.”
You know, I hadn’t even walled off before in P vs Z until LotV. I hated that I had to learn it now, but… it “paid off,” and I couldn’t imagine not doing so now, even if I had the choice. I was making a forge after nexus or something, beforehand.
I actually find that the easiest variation to play against. I’m not asking for a million dollars here, you know? The game just freaking started. Can I at least have a nexus to my name? I haven’t even got the chance to make a unit yet! Some things are just so ridiculous, you can only shake your head.
If they’re doing the void ray thing, it means I have a nexus still, thus… surprise… I win most of those games. Ofc, it’s still a clown fiesta. Watching shield batteries be used by a cannon rusher in a way they weren’t designed for. That’s fine, though, too cause… what would the world be without imbalanced cannon rushing.
A clown fiesta indeed; any competent cannon rusher should win that scenario because you’re limited by gas in your main while he can expand (unless you have a probe on map); in addition to this you’re in the dark quite a bit (you don’t even know if he is going Stargate/Battery or fast expo until you get something outside your main (fast expo is a very strong path for him to take); you don’t know how many batteries are being made; alot of luck is involved in the engagements because it is a Voidray range v Battery range battle).
In my experience, it all comes down to “who gets the jump” on the tech. It’s kind of a coin flip, though. Like I’ll tech straight to 2 stargates, as fast as possible. No warp gate. No stalker. All gas going to stargates and maximizing void ray count. Then, I’ll add in stalkers. If you do that, you’re going to overpower a guy trying to rely on winning via void rays, himself.
You can get in trouble though when a guy just keeps making adepts/zealots. It’s rare and probably nonsensical, but it can really be a kick in the sack.
Everything about the cannon rush is just stupidity normalized. Trying to make sense out of the opposite of sense.
And if he expos with cannons/batteries/phoenix while you’ve sunk everything into vrays etc. and there is nothing outside your main? Most of the time a failed cannon rush turns into a fast expo with cannon/batteries/phoenix and the defender is just way behind/can’t put a counter together fast enough before the attacker’s eco kicks in.
Well, I’ve never actually seen that. I’m still mad about a game I lost a month or two ago. I just flat out stopped a cannon rush as hard as it can be stopped. Then, I also blocked the guy’s natural, so he couldn’t fast expand.
Well, he just took an expand elsewhere, and went into a “normal game.” Stalkers and what not. I beat this guy in straight up games, yet can’t even beat him after stopping a cannon rush. You can’t win. I don’t even bother to block expansions after that game.
They all crush P vs P. You ask any top NA Toss pro who they’re most scared of when it comes to a WCS qualifier, they’re probably going to say Printf, as Astrea did last WCS qualifier.
It doesn’t matter if you have 8k MMR, when another guy’s win condition is simply “making a cannon in your base.” You remember in WoL when they allowed the “boss cannon.” On maps like daybreak, all it took to win a game was making 2 pylons behind your mineral line. That’s dumb. This is also dumb.
A jump back the above, though. The faster you have a void ray, not only the faster can you take your own natural, but the faster you realize what they’re doing. So, while it wouldn’t be ideal, I think it might still be manageable. Not sure, though.
Well, let me give some context (this will be messy, lot of branches on this tree); I 12 scout EVERY PvP; if I see gateway I open gateway/gas block to compensate the 12 scout/play normal from there (but from behind); if I see forge I open forge (however, I’m at slight disadvantage because my forge is a bit slower); I have pylon near top of ramp in normal position, forge/gateway/second pylon to wall off ramp, one cannon to deny high-ground vision and I usually win from there (usually proxy something with my scouting probe to springboard an all-in), HOWEVER, it depends on how good the cannon rusher is; depending upon the map and how good the guy is, sometimes he gets into my main before I can wall off or he manages to break my wall (clown fiesta time); sometimes he instantly recognizes the CR will fail and just drops Nexus and goes Phoenix (I’m now behind with no way to punish); sometimes he cancels forge and I’m behind; then there is the Voidray/Battery scenario which I’m bad at (I play Blink/Ruptor, bad with air units); I have noticed that almost every cannon rusher follows up with air (it’s in their genetic code; going straight Voidray is the next noobiest thing they can do after cannon rushing); I usually go Stargate because I anticipate Stargate from cannon rushers (either in my nat or back home) but the problem with Voidray is they absolutely suck at all-inning in the early game because they are so slow to get across map, so a macro game is inevitable and he will usually be ahead (you have a small window to punish greedy Nexus; it’s difficult when your gas is late and ramp is walled and he has time to go defensive Stargate/cannons/etc.); not to mention he has the freedom to Ninja base at will
An important difference to note that I do: I actually make my gateway at my natural. I wall off just like I do vs Zerg. I’ve found this to, easily, be the most optimal way to play against standard Toss, contrary to the unanimous consensus.
So, I have some amount of vision of my natural for long enough to usually figure out if they have proxied stargates there or not. They also end up making more cannons to try to kill my wall, meaning they’re not expanding.
So, I definitely get a leg up on the scouting department. I still get caught off guard by adepts and stuff…
You’re spot on, though. 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time, if a guy fails a cannon rush he’s going to go 2 stargate phoenix. Maybe 5% of the time he goes void rays at home… They’re so predictable. I don’t think I’ve ever played a masters cannon rusher who didn’t do this.
It’s crazy how high of win rates these guys get, despite being able to attempt to blind counter everything they’re doing, and they’re playing like they have the skill of players at least 2 leagues below where they are.
Before someone says “aha, that’s why you’re bad against cannon rushes.” This is a thing I started doing like two months ago. My utter disdain and scratching my head vs this strat has been since day 1.
Also, the fact that they forced you to 12 scout makes me want to cry. Just hurts so bad to hear that. Then, to add that you’re still mired in the struggle despite 12 scouting. Is there no justice in this world? I’m sorry. Someone owes you at least that.
Well, when I know I’m playing a Voidray/Battery noob, I metagame them by doing what you say; I pylon my natural and put forge at natural, and their brain explodes (they usually then try to proxy at my third or something but it’s way too late by then); the problem I find with this is that I’m now in cannon duel mode, meaning he has two probes running around my base and the better cannon handler will win; you have to make split second decisions and it is very tricky (for example, you choose to squeak out a gas and it allows him to get up 3 cannons in an area where you can only get up 2); you’re also at a disadvantage again because you don’t know what he’s doing back home (e.g., you’re banking minerals to drop cannons if necessary when he may have gone double gas back home); this again comes down to how good the guy is; if he is a full-time cannon rusher he’s probably going to win this duel (I never cannon rush, so I’m not practiced at it)
I’m so glad you’ve shared your harrowing experiences. If I can’t get a nerf that is 10 years overdue, at least I can feel like there is a support group on the forums now. God knows I need it.
Like, I really like printf as a person. I think he’s a “proper nerd” and all that good stuff. But, my god… this isn’t playable for anyone sane. I’d rather lose every game than cannon rush. And I’d rather not play than be cannon rushed every game.
lol honestly man losing in one of these scenarios pisses me off so much I physically punch my desk lol; it’s just so irritating knowing you lost to some scrub with 70 APM because of build order basically
I’ll share one more, not sure if you experienced this but there is a new flavor of CR where they get behind your min line, wall them self in with 4 pylon and drop one cannon…the only defense is to prevent him from getting the wall off…could possibly be a PRINTF “innovation”, in any case it happened to me on ladder recently, incredibly frustrating
It’s so stupid man. You play a pro gamer right. Finally got lucky and earned you some hard fought points, to not be duplicated anytime soon.
Then, like clockwork, some 70 APM noob beats you with a cannon rush within 3 minutes. You’re so freaking mad/irate at this point. You’re seeing red. You auto queue. You can’t help it. You already know what’s going to come. But, what are supposed to do? You need to get your points back.
Guess how the story ends? Oh, guess who it is next game… same nerd. Same result. Minus 100 points for 5 minutes worth of game play. It doesn’t take a smart person to figure out… if anything might be hurting the player base population, it might be something this dumb.
it is incredibly toxic/cancerous; I can guarantee it has caused physical/mental harm to a large amount of the player base; it gets me to 10/10 rage, I can admit it (and nothing is sweeter than wrecking one of these fools)
Yeah man. I’ve played those games where you stopped every single cannon attempt for the past 15 minutes and then bozo the clown pulls off the 1 cannon behind your mineral line into “time to say GG and acknowledge how great of a f’ing game this was.” What a bunch of bs man.
I hate this strat so much and hate that these guys aren’t all in bronze league so much, that I was going 12 pylon on the high ground, 13 gateway on the low ground (placed in most abusive cannon spot), and chronoing out a zealot every game.
I was at the point where I didn’t care if I lost 100% of the time to standard toss. I just never wanted to lose another game to a cannon geek. Bro, do you know how infuriating it is to still lose games to cannon rush, despite having the fastest zealot possible and having your life’s goal/mission be to beat these geeks?
LOL I know 100%, as I said my entire opening has revolved around checking for Forge with 12 scout for a long time; like you say, I’d rather play from behind in every PvP than give any cannon rusher a win; I actually wrote a whole treatise about CR defense (it works pretty well up to Masters, not so much after that) on the old forum in the Protoss section just to help other people defend CR to reduce the number of wins these guys get. The margin of error is so slim and it snowballs so easily; like one second late or one probe too few attacking a cannon and it’s tilted in his favor and snowballs into a win (e.g., when he gets that one critical cannon up and now you’re toast)