Did you even read the post? Blizzard has two separate sets of balance updates, this is one, and on the 15th they will release the second set which will be an entirely different direction for buffs and nerfs.
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What a joke of a sc2 balance team. GSL winner: Zerg, HSC winner: Zerg. Conclusion: Let’s nerf Protoss. Protoss have the worst late game army, useless carriers, useless feedback from templar, colossus still underpowered, and now you want to screw around with the warp prism. Why do you think Protoss even all in? Because they have no late game. I can’t wait for this patch so you can see how Protoss is so bad of a race. I long for the day when Terran will require research for their siege tanks or medivacs instead of getting healing/range for free. Now you’re buffing ghost range (a unit that moves twice as fast while invisible as the templar and has an AOE feedback as opposed to single target templar), I’m sorry could you make it a little easier for Terran. Maybe, you can just make an “I win,” button for them because they’re clearly too hard of a race if you need to make this much of an advantage for this race to win the “ghost-templar micro battle.”
Now there is literally 0 reason to make a warp prism. Just make a pylon for cheaper (twice the durability) and doesn’t take up building time for your units on the all-in. No difference. Disgusted with the SC2 balance team. Can’t wait for the revert.
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I have to caution you on this change. While it’s a change that I’m open to, this is something that’s absolutely monumental. A lot of builds both for and against terran, revolve around being able to snipe stim and slow down how soon MMM gets its power-spike, or hit when stim is just finishing for a powerful timing attack. I like it in theory, but it’s definitely something you need to be careful with. Even a 10 second reduction in research would be massive for an upgrade like stim - as it is, it’s almost a 20% reduction in the time it takes to research.
As someone who regularly tries to play the late-game vs protoss, I honestly don’t think that this is necessary. EMP is really good as it is. It takes a lot of control and skill to use, but that doesn’t make it a weak spell. Again, I’m open to the idea, but again, this is a really big (and in my opinion, an unnecessary) change.
This is cute, but I think you’ve missed the mark here. Infested terrans aren’t something that greatly affect TvZ (outside of the rarely seen skyterran composition), so looking at this from a PvZ point of view, I don’t think that ITs specifically were the issue, so much as how many Infested Terrans can be thrown out at once. That said, I’m not exactly well versed on the protoss side of things, so I don’t have to much to say about it.
This is one I’ll wait and see for. I’m down for the change though.
I don’t like this. Personally speaking, I think it’s a bit on the overkill side. They already had a massive decrease in how much of the army can be recalled in the november update. Maybe bring it to 100 instead of 130 so there’s a little more time while still allowing them to defend a bit better?
Again, I think you’ve missed the mark here. I don’t think this is the solution. While there was a problem with warp in for TvP, it wasn’t a massive one. A slight increase in the time it took would have been nice, but not strictly necessary IMO. Personally, I feel like the massive pickup range is far more of an issue.
The example of Zest versus soO in Homestory cup is a perfect one to look at. With half the army supply, Zest utterly wrecked soO’s army not once, not twice, but three times before soO won (by killing the warp prism when Zest threw it into his army). It should simply have been a numbers game, and if you’d replaced the prism with the medivac, it would have been, because there’s no way you’d be able to keep the medivac alive to juggle the
Other thoughts
As an aside, I’m a little disappointed we haven’t heard any more on the battle-cruiser, particularly regarding tactical jump. I’m not certain it’s a huge issue, but I do think it’s a little crazy that you can jump literally anywhere on the map without it needing to be researched first. For Zerg in particular, having an upgrade would mean that the timing would be slowed somewhat - either they can wait and jump in (or hit and jump out), or they can go ASAP but risk losing the Battle Cruiser. It’s something that I feel is worth looking into.
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Now, what about pvz…
And if possible, widowmine revert please ![:star_struck:](https://d212vo0owly06i.cloudfront.net/en/sc2/images/emoji/twitter/star_struck.png?v=6" ":star_struck:")
These changes are crazy! The stim change is a little weird, but Ok, I don’t mind. I think the warp prism change should be something to really focus on here, it sounds like a strange choice design wise, and game play wise. I will be testing these changes, but so far they are pretty not terrible. I understand why it took so long to get these out now.
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Spot on with the Warp prism and Infested Terran… How can Blizzard not realize those
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The warp prism warp in time nerf is the single best thing I’ve seen on a balance board. This is going in the right direction to fixing defenders advantage, also it puts Protoss in a position for a buff somewhere else. The warp in mechanic needs slowly nerfed and replaced with something better.
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An alternative to the Warp Prism change I would consider is a longer mode transformation time, say increase by 1-2 seconds.
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They said that the important “experimental” changes were in this patch. Considering that this patch is lackluster, I don’t expect much in the 2nd round, nor should you. It took them over 6 months to come out with this…
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You are pretty clueless about balancing as we can see
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I agree with you on this.
I am going to have to disagree with you on this Miro. While ghosts are in a very good spot in TvZ, they have always felt a little lackluster in TvP in comparison, especially in the ultra late game. Don’t get me wrong, they are still useful in TvP, at least in the late game.
The major issue is that while late game TvP is manageable with bio/lib/ghost, ultra late game TvP is still incredibly difficult when dealing with mass tempest/storm. The late game EMP radius buff for the ghost from 1.5 to 2 should help alleviate this issue.
I agree with you on this as well. I am very surprised they have not bothered to put TJ behind an upgrade at the fusion core. Or tie the cooldown with yamato like you have suggested in the past.
6 Likes
Please look into the Nydus as well. Its ability to throw a bunch of roaches and queens into someones base quickly is obnoxious but the real issue is with the Nydus/Swarm Host combo. Swarm Hosts are probably a bigger issue than the nydus, flying high DPS locusts were a terrible idea from the get go.
Nydus/Swarm Host is one of the worst things I’ve seen so far in LOTV… Just really really bad design all around.
I also would recommend looking into the Warp Prisms speed and quick deploy over its ability to warp in quickly. I think its ability to quickly get away from danger, even its best counters, is the real problem.
I’m not sure I like the Stim changes but I can see why it might be great for bandaiding a bunch of early game issues. I love the ghost change. I really think Terran has an economy expansion problem relative to the other races but thats a complex issue.
I hate recall overall so I’m not sure what to do other than remove it or make it a one off use thing.
Good start to a patch though I’d say, just wish it came sooner!
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Globally, the changes seem to go in a good direction overall :
— (light) buff stim (which is mostly to prevent it being sniped, which may help against blink or PvT allins in particular), light buff ghosts (which may help not only vs HT but possibly against infestors)
— Nerf warp prism, though an upgrade will negate it (= straight nerf to toss allins)
— Nerf infested terrans = buff to PvZ & TvZ late (thank you TY ^^)
— Buff carrier = buff to PvZ late (which were a bit underwhelming vs hydras)
— The nerf recall was wished for since a long time and is very welcome in my eyes.
Overall, good changes. I’m not sure it will completely change how skyterran will behave against infestor-viper-corruptors-BL, or if it will make TvP endgame really easier… But we will judge that when terrans will have implemented more ghosts in their compositions. So wait & see I guess. =)
I would just add two points however :
— Nydus load and most of all unload speeds seem too high, which combines badly with its capacity (which is also higher than most transportations/dropships).
— Free units should be less efficient than costly ones ! An infested terran should DPS less than a marine (half less even considering they’re only 25 energy), an autoturret’s DPS should be inferior to a landed viking, and SH’s locusts should individually be less effective than half an hydra. Free units should be used as worker harass and as meatshields ; seeing those units force deathballs to backdown, and take out capital ships and expands in the blink of an eye seems like nonsense !
2 Likes
Honestly, as a viewer who has been watched more than 100 top matches this year, I agree with most of the changes here.
According to Lanchester’s square law, the reason why SC2 games often ends with one frontal engagement instead of many like SC1, which resulting in games fun to play or watch, is the smart pathing AI and teleporting reinforcements.
Anyway, let me summarize the problem of games on pro games level:
TvP: Due to the advantage of faster A/D upgrades, protoss players are able to snow ball Terran players pretty fast and win before late game. It somehow forces T uses strategies like proxy raks to prevent it from the right beginning. PsiStorm is a powerful tool to counter T harass from the beginning to the end. Mech against toss is always a wet dream as long as Immortals are there. We could only see some Thors used to counter tempests late game.
TvZ: It might be one of the most balanced situation so far. The only problem, which is the biggest one, is the super powerful viper, infestors combo, which can stomp almost everything, Terran or Toss, sky or ground, groups or individuals, with only the cost of energy. Another general problem is the lack of late game static defense, making terrans costs much more in both forces, APM ,attention and resource when facing lings or zealots runby than Z and P.
PvZ: Toss relies extremely heavily on the 8 mins, 3-4 immortal push. If they could make it, zerg dies, otherwise toss dies. Honestly it is kinda boring, I only prefer it over PvP games.
My opinions over those changes:
Stim:
It grants a earlier snowball for terrans when against toss, which is exactly what they needed. However it may cause a impact in TvZ games.
EMP:
It is also a great change, terrans may no longer fears viper+infestor godlike combos late game with 2 radius EMP, giving them some chance to win the frontal engagement instead of hiding behind turrets and tossing nukes around.
Carrier changes:
I still believe the biggest problem of golden armada is their mobility and vipers. Zerg players can utilize lings run by and prevent armada from pushing zerg bases aka tons of spores. Vipers and infestors can also destroy carriers and their interceptors easily only at the cost of energy.
Prism changes:
It may disable the ability to end the game early with one push, which is good but the only option to win in PvZ. And still, it can still allow toss players win the game with one push, which is boring, less fun and destroys PvP games.
Recall changes:
Another nerf to toss early game snowball, one is good, two might be too much. But yes, it downgrades the gaming experience of the opponent player: my strategies are nothing when toss can teleport his troop anywhere whenever.
My suggestion:
Stim change:
Reduce the time to 110 instead of 100, increase the armor of life of tech addons.
WP change:
Reduce the power field radius is another option without harming the early game harassment capability.
Terran changes:
Upgrade that allows bunker to house one hellbat (automatically switch between hellbat or hellion attack modes) to reduce the impact of lings and zealots runby and even the APM and attention cost for T, Z or P players.
Visual effect that indicate thor AA high exp weapon projectile.
Zerg changes:
Clearer radius visual effect for viper clouds.
Viper bomb disperses if the target is died or landed (viking).
Infestor automaticly unburrows when casting mind control.
W hotkey that can select all creep tumors (like the one to select all warp gates), increase the creep spreading rate and radius if there are zerg structures nearby, decrease if not.
Toss changes:
Mothership can no longer be pulled by vipers or mind controlled by infestors.
Reduce mothership cost to 300/300
Reduce time warp cost to 75.
Phase Swift: Cloak mothership herself and increase movement speed to 3, allowing the player use the mothership like arbiters in SC1, giving them more options in late game engagements.
3 Likes
Many people agree TvP required T buff, so these changes finally appear. Yet i think stim buff is a little bit too much and Balance team won’t apply it because it will change game meta too much.
Prism nerf is absolutly right thing to do, but this kind of nerf hurts protass too much. What i see as a better alternative is nerfing its speed, so prism won’t be able to ignore turrets. Or maybe give turret upgrade ability to slow down units. Some king of concussive shells for missile turrets. The warp of 6+ zealots to terran base is usually unforgiving and requires immediate retreat from attack to save main base.
EMP buff is seemingly simple and right.
What i think might be an interesting choice is to buff nuke. Now nuclear strike is just a way to disattract zerg. Redesigning it in some way cannot lead to any harmful meta changes, but will require more skill for Z and P to react and perform multitask. Something like speed buff will demand more reaction for players whereas buffing damage will make it better sabotage/static defence countermere. Maybe “nuke alert” nerf.
So,the Stim timing will hit well before Colossi and P will be forced to defend tank/medi/lib/bio push with nothing but gateway units.
Who makes Adepts vs Marines these days anyway?
Yo why are protoss allowed to skip the amount of time it takes to build a unit and the amount of time it takes to cross a map just by using warpgate anyway
4 Likes
It seems to me that the game is experiencing a period of unprecedented balance. Win-rate fluctuations are down in Aligulac lower than they’ve ever been, and are currently approaching 50/50 in all matchups. If the largest factor in determining the outcome of games is chance, we’d expect a tightening of the win-rates, while if skill were the largest determining factor we’d expect a widening as players hone-in on the strongest (and thus most imbalanced) strategies thereby maximizing win-rates differences. When I watch pro play, I see a lot of luck involved. The same build can be used two different times and one time will make a player look like a God and the other time a fool, the difference being dumb luck - whether a player sees a medivac of mines in time to pull probes or not.
Do you think the observed tightening of win-rates is caused by the game being too chaotic, with too much chance involved in the outcome, and thus any design imbalances are never able to manifest in the win-rates?
3 Likes
First, thank you for community update. I think it has been way too long from the last one. It is not just about changes, it is about understanding what is balance team position on current game meta and stance in general. Please be more active with community.
Regarding changes:
-stim: interesting change, perhaps we will see new builds coming into play. Research time of stim was way too long for current game pace. It may have some interesting change/effect on tvt as well.
-ghost: change itself can be interesting, BUT the way it is put under expensive update is questionable. Now, in tvp terrans are saturating gas on natural base very early, and still finding gas for +2 is a problem.
I understand that it is difficult to make changes to tvp without killing tvz. Balance team is right by trying to buff EMP, which mostly affect tvp.
However, there is another very nice way to change tvp without changing tvz or pvz(almost). Just change HP/Shield ratio for zealots. Now, it is 100/50, make it 90/60 or 80/70, and ghost will be a much better counter for mass zealot builds. (3 gas builds with many bases)
Keep up the good work and all the best!
2 Likes
overall. improves me if I’m wrong:
PvP:
- def advantage (WP nerf)
- Carriers?
PvT:
- early mid buff T (stim)
- a late game buff/upgrade for T (ghost)
- def advantage (WP nerf) for T
- late game option Carriers?
TvT:
- more bio/timing (stim)?
ZvT:
- early mid buff T (stim)
- a late game buff/upgrade for T (ghost)
- weaker infested Terra
ZvZ: -
ZvP:
- def advantage (WP nerf) for Z
- late game option Carriers?
- weaker infested Terra
2 Likes