Maybe its the highest win rate strategy on ladder? There are a million ways to counter cannon rush. I’d guess its one of the lowest rated win rates in pro play too. But I’m curious. Instead of complaining, what proposed solution would you have to prevent cannon rushes, that wouldn’t nerf regular protoss play?
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they could make the forge more expensive or increase the building time of a cannon?
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I could see increasing cannon build time. I wouldn’t like a more expensive forge, unless it was made up for by decreasing +1 upgrade costs. But that would be harder because which upgrade do you choose to decrease? If you split it among them all it is a nerf to protoss.
I’d be ok with longer cannon warp-ins though. Cannons aren’t really used outside of cannon rushes and for protections against drops mid to late game, so increased time on the cannon isn’t a major nerf.
2 Likes
meanwhile broken nydus remains unchanged
10 Likes
The solution has already been mentioned and even implemented by a forum poster in one of his mods. Simply requiring a gateway before forge. It’s the most broken strat in the game, while also having the easiest solution to fixing, yet… Blizzard is just mum. It’s crazy world.
It’s like no one wants to acknowledge they’ve allowed a broken thing to exist in the game for years. W/e… call it a tweak for the sanity of everyone who plays the game or wants to.
Cannon rushing in P vs P makes the blink stalker all-in era build look like the worst build ever. They freaking nerf the adept, just so Terran can make sure they can go expand on the low ground without being delayed.
Hello? How about allowing me to even make a zealot before I’ve lost a game. Last I checked, having a nexus wasn’t optional, if having picked Toss. I never see cannon rushing lose in pro P vs Z. The only one I can recall is recently when a guy trapped his immortal and had his stalker too close to wall, allowing banelings to also splash cannon.
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If cannon required a gateway and forge to build
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I hate carriers so much any buff to them makes me nervous
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since that is your mo in that excample get ghosts, get the increased range for emp and syphon that energy …
also how many times you have full energy infestors?
so they can be even more of a meme? ever heard of widow mines / parasitic bomb?
I like the push for certain concepts but not all the ways that they are being implemented.
Twenty seconds (or even a few seconds) in this game is critical, especially in any timing build; stem timings are going to be more prevalent now that might cause Terran all is even more as Terran late game is arguably still weak protoss and less arguably (but still weak) against zerg.
I think the EMP upgrade is “cool” but not critical enough to make a big difference in TvZ or TvP. Also seems quite expensive of an upgrade.
Those important but not as critical changes to the interceptor and infested terran are a good start; it’s something that needed to be done earlier.
I don’t understand the revert back to such a long recall cool down. It just doesn’t make sense in my opinion why a happy medium like 100 seconds wasn’t selected.
Things that need to be addressed in my opinion:
Ultimate late game zerg - infestors (vipers whoops) need a minor debuff such as a minor decrease in parasitic bomb damage, especially in ZvT.
Ravens need a slight buff - perhaps turret lasts 2 more seconds or interference matrix spell range increased to 10; I wish more Terran would use Ravens against infestors and vipers (specifically that spell) to neutralize zerg better.
Change air attack of liberator - arguably the biggest joke of the game besides void rays. I would give liberators a “cone” or “V” to attack within; it would have similarish firepower as their sieged ground attack.
Buff void rays to make them a viable unit against corrupters or other armored units giving them some sort of a buff.
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Terran is given new light!
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No one wants to play against a cannon rush. It simply isn’t enjoyable for any one. I usually only have time for a couple games a night and I’d rather just leave a cannon rush game to find a quality game.
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Dear Dev Team,
Please do not nerf Zerg once more, infestors are nerfed to the ground as it is, fungal does not diasable cant be cast while burrowed… Also Ghost can cast its spells while being cloacked but infestors cannot fungal while burrowed!?
And the thing i wanted to mention is; whenever zerg gets nerfed that nerfed units opposind unit/units also gets a counter buff and so a seemingly ok nerf turns out to be more harmful to zerg.
What i mean by that is both nerfing infestor and buffing carrier and Ghost emp, is 1 nerf and 2 counter buffs as well.
Every Zerg unit has already been nerfed most of them multiple times;
-Hydras: Range nerfed, than upgrade that gives speed and range was nerfed by splitting the upgrade in 2 upgrades.
Queens: Creep spread speed, transfuse nerfs
Roach: burrow regen nerf(worst army unit in the game BTW)
Drop Overlord: moved to lair This nerf is what killed ZvP honestly. made the zerg completly super glued to creep.
Ultralisk: armor nerfs made the unit unusable and also both siege tank buff in patch 3.8.0 and mara buff much later on are 2 counter buffs on top of a nerf so unit is useless now. too expensive both in resourse and supply and dies instantly.
Nydus: nerfed form unattackable to attackable given more armor, than in next patch armor taken away. But it gave an unload speed buff tbf.
Broodlord: Unit first nerfed from 11 range to 10 range to make it even with thors(Broodlord are x2 the cost more supply and harder and longer to produce) and than Thor buffed to outrange them 2 nerfs + 1 counter Buff.
Every zerg unit needs a speed upgrade to move at a decent speed; zerglings, banelings, roaches, overlords, hydralisk even ultras.
Game makes it so hard for zerg to leave the creep and get agressive and we have to stay on creep and defend but after defending that much the tech we reach has to mean something, Broodlord should not be out ranged by a thor. Ultras should not die to 4 maras…
Zerg is already nerfed to the ground please re-consider before nerfing zerg again.
1 counter buff per match up. The fact that the total number of buffs is two does not make a difference.
How strong Carriers are vs Infestors and vice versa has no impact on TvZ whatsoever, and vice versa.
2 Likes
Not too fond of the stim research time upgrade, but the rest seems alright. I’m slightly worried that by the process of nerfing zerg late game in ZvP and buffing terran in TvP, that TvZ might be affected too much by the sum of all the different changes. The stim timing though, that one looks really dangerous, not as much for the stim timing itself but more for the followup push with combat shields and upgrades hitting faster. Is this the return of the 2-1-1?
I’ll be interested in looking for the second set of changes and see how it goes.
I don’t think Warp Prism is “esstiental” in defending powerfull all-in, I think it is way too good at defending anything. Remeber Zest holding SoO’s push again and again with a prism picking up immortals making them impossible to kill while he was 100 supply behind? That is not ok at all.
4 Likes
Not a fan of these changes, sorry guys.
- No fix for the clearly overpowered Nydus Worm (Dark vs. Trap Grand FInals). Breaks ZvP and also makes TvZ mech difficult when paired with Swarm Hosts (TY vs. Serral).
- No fix for the Raven disable ability, which ruins Marine Tank in TvT (INnoVation opens with 3 nowadays!) and turns TvP timing attacks into complete coinflips (either disable 2 Colossus to auto-win, or Raven insta-dies to Stalker Blink / Pheonix).
- Useless Ghost EMP upgrade. Realistic EMP usage: you blanket Toss’s army once and never cast it again. A good Protoss won’t clump their HT together, and keep them safe inside of a Warp Prism container. I’d rather have 1 extra Ghost than waste 150/150 on that.
- Stimpack research 18%~ faster misses the point with TvP. 2 base TvP timing attacks are fine; TvP late-game is not. e.g. Chargelot runbys (TY vs. Zest Game 6 Homestory), teleporting DTs and 15 range tempest (Maru vs. Dear Code S), triple AOE splash damage options, etc.
- Warp Prism change is a bandaid; high speed and 6 range pick-up for 200 minerals is a bigger issue in ZvP. Moving 4 second warps to a Robo Bay upgrade just delays the inevitable Chargelot runbys in TvP ransacking everything.
- PvP is still a cancerous match-up (just read Playa’s posts about it). Winning a macro PvZ against Brood Lord Infestor is basically impossible unless you kill them with ground units before they get there. Back to 2012 PvZ but without the Mothership Vortex. Carrier Interceptor/Infested Terran changes are not enough compensation.
Guess we have to wait till Blizzcon for a proper balance update. Shame.
9 Likes
Thanks for the good changes but I have serveral thoughts:
- Instead of buffing stim, maybe buff terran late game instead? Add back seeker missle to raven to give terran late game splash spell so terran is not completely overwhelmed by infestor spam in late game?
- I understand the design standpoint is to make Zerg stronger in late game. However, Zerg spellcasters have gone to a point from “advantagous” to “frustrating”. 20 infestors fighting off any army of terran or protoss is simply not fun to watch, and currently Zerg has little problem transitioning into it. The problem is right now Fungal outrange EMP/ feedback making infestors impossible to counter in any late game situation. We have seen too many times when Zerg can just use fungal to kill off dozens of ghosts, which are suppose to counter them.
Here’s the statistic:
Fungal Growth: Range-10, Radius-2.25
Feedback: Range-9
EMP Round: Range-10, Radius-1.5
Both counter spells are outranged by fungal growth. The EMP research that increases the radius from 1.5 to 2 doesn’t even the odds.
I think reducing the range of fungal growth or make it unable to affect psionic units are really necessary. This way Infestors are actually counterable in a late game situation and are not completely frustrating to play against. And Zerg will stil be in advantage with the Broodlord+infestor+viper combo having the potential to wipe out the entire army.
I really hope the next set of changes can address the issue. Anyway the direction of the changes are really healthy for the game. Thanks!
1 Like
Both EMP and Fungal have a cast range of 10
So making EMP have a similar radius as Fungal would even things out.
Infestors don’t have Parabomb, that is a Viper spell.
2 Likes
Stim research reduction: Great
Warp Prism chage: Definitely great
Carrier buff: definitely no.
Carriers aren’t a fun unit, they are a binary a-move unit. Either you have enough of them and steamroll your opponent, or you don’t and get steam rolled. Reducing the Interceptor build time simply reduces the number of Carriers you need to reach that tipping point.
Rather than buffing Carriers I’d much rather see ZvP late game addressed by giving Protoss more options to deal with Vipers. Frankly I’d be more than happy to see Carriers relegated to a novelty unit only ever made for style points, and Tempests to be the real Capital Ship of the Protoss army for balance purposes. Tempests are just a generally better designed unit, both to use and to play against. Carriers are and always have been either too good or terrible, I don’t think they’re ever going to be “just right”. One possibility is maybe making the Mothership immune to Abduct? Just spitballing on that.
RE Ghosts. The EMP upgrade is, in practice, just a reversion of the nerf from early LotV, where the EMP radius was reduced by, if I remember correctly, about 46%. I think this change is a bad one actually, this is the type of change that is going to be really good in lower leagues but pretty worthless in the pro scene. You can’t EMP Templar in a Warp Prism, after all. On the other hand, maybe that’s what Blizzard is aiming for here? It’s been a common theme that Protoss has an advantage in lower league while Terran pull ahead at the top, due to Terran’s greater ability to micro. Could go either way, depends on the intention behind it.