SO I WILL HAVE A MARINE PUSH MORE FASTER NOW IN ZVT ARE YOU KIDDING? ARE YOU KNOW HOW STRONG ARE THE TERRANS PUSHE IN EARLY GAME? WHAT A MESS IS JUST RIDICULOUS
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Bro everytime I watch GM Terran streamers, they rarely face cannon rushes. It doesn’t seem to me this “meta” strategy at high levels.
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You’re the first person to mention cannon rushing against Terran in this thread, to my recollection. Bro, cannon rushing is only somewhat of a thing versus Terran because cannon rushers are playing leagues below where they should, thus have no other option.
It’s the whole round peg, square hole thing, but they only have a round peg. As mentioned before, I looked at these guy’s win rates. They were always sub 50% vs Terran in HotS. 45% was the norm. Closer to 50% vs Zerg. The sky is the freaking limit vs Toss.
In LotV, with all of this extra clown stuff, like shield batteries, to aid their cannon rush, some of them can win more games than before, but it’s still a “I can’t do anything else strat vs Terran,” rather than “yeah, this is actually good.”
So you are referring to PvP cannon rushes in particular… I didn’t realize that because you were quoting Scarlett.
I don’t know about that, I never watch P streamers.
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I try to stay in “my lane,” though I feel like cannon rushing rarely ever loses in pro P vs Z games. My contention/infuriation is centered around P vs P and playing these guys, and knowing for years they’ve had the highest win rates on ladder.
In SC 2, though, there is this thing of “we don’t care how unfair something is if it’s not used a lot by 10 guys in the world that we base our feelings on.”
It’s like… bro… I can’t even play your stupid game cause of this bs. No one cares about whether “Showtime” wants to practice cannon rushing enough to use in a tournament or not. I see these guys lose enough to cannon rushing to know I’m not just crazy.
I brought up Scarlett to drive home just how crazy it is to not nerf this strategy. Apparently she’s been trying to get this nerfed due to feeling that it’s a free win for Toss, in a matchup that it’s supposed to be SECOND best in strength.
It’s just so dumb man that the players who got buffed the most in LotV are cannon rushers. These guys could only win P vs P pre LotV. Now, with the shield battery and dumb immortal stuff, to follow up cannon rushes, they’re reaching win rates that are very similar to P vs P. One of them is even over 70% this season against Zerg.
If cannon rushing were as strong against Terran as it is the other races… WCS would just be a bunch of people cannon rushing every game. Printf would be Neeb. Serral would have switched to Toss, and no one else would play the game.
At least they usually have to make a unit against Zerg. Winning a game in 2 minutes against Toss is just “that’s how SC 2 is meant to be played. Hope you didn’t bm by forgetting to GG! He made that pylon in your base like a GSL champ, son.”
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Overall I like the changes as a Terran player. However I think that reactor construction time could be decreased too. Reactor really takes a long time to make and it makes you really vulnerable to the protoss early attacks like a stalker and a zealot. You have one marine and a reactor finished when a stalker comes to your base, even when nexus is played first. You always need a bunker against protoss even when they do not play any proxy. Maybe you should still be able to build one marine at the time during the construction of the reacor, so you could have like 2 marines to defend against the adept. Stim change doesn’t seem like a big deal against zerg, especially because stim finishes just in time you arrive in the zerg’s base with the two medivacs. You really cannot attack with stim but without medivacs so it does not really change those early 2-1-1 timings. It will allow Terrans to start with more of a tech opening versus protoss like cyclone, raven, banshee or a widow mine drop and have a smoother transition into the bio push and will change the odds of stim being sniped by the blink stalkers. In my opinion it wil not affect those super early pushes and won’t affect TvZ as much. I see that blizzard listened to players because things like recall and warp prism were changed. Recall allowed protoss to be out of position in case of drops and then recall and blink onto your medivacs when you would boost away. Warp prism warpin time is more meaningful against zerg in case of those obnoxiuous all inns we’ve all been seeing recently in most PvZ pro matches. However it will give us some time to 12 zealots being warped in at once in our base when we are moving out. Emp radius is pretty good change, however I don’t know if it will change the odds in a very meaningful way. For the sake of the professional TvP EMP should affect the templars stored in the warp prisms, because in that ways protosses can’t have their templars sniped, emp’d and they can drop and storm all of the terran’s armies. It doesn’t affect me as much in the master 3 but it seems too strong in the pro matches. I think that terrans also need some better counter to the chargelots, as they are very cheap, tanky and mobile. The problem with widow mines is that especially in the earlier pushes zealots charge into your army and mines fire at your marines killing them all and leaving the much tankier zealots alive. Making widow mines do no friendly fire would not make them stronger against enemie’s units, it would just erase the design flaw. They counter lings and zealots which are melee, so the missle fires straight into your marines. I wouldn’t mind zealots armor being decreased or charge being more expensive, however I don’t think protoss players would like that very much so the widow mine change would be more neutral for all players. Carrier change seems to be good too, as I think they have been nerfed too far. Overall I like the changes a lot but I think that even more delicate changes could be made to improve TvP, as the TvZ is mostly balanced up untill 10 minutes or so in my opinion,
To be blunt, most upgrades were timed and balanced around HOTS with the slower startup.
LOTV starts players off with 12 workers. You can start building immediately, but you won’t have the bank nor the building progress that you would’ve had when you reached that worker count in HOTS. As such, any upgrade that hasn’t been adjusted since LOTV may be fine with a shorter research; simply because the startup is so different.
i agree to you that this one late comp from zerg (inf/bl/viper/xx/yy) is strong.
but you play it self? i found it difficult you need lot of control / positing. i think this comp is more for higher Z-player.
sure, in a normal game (no all in) you are save in early game from zerg harass, just one unit in the wall. whe you have your 3 is a bit harder than zerg have tec/ option for harass.
I was always under the impression that the core PvT spellcaster problem is not with the spells themselves, but that Protoss has a much easier time in casting it. Storm is just so easy to cast, so devastating, and HT are easier to warp in and protect. As is, EMP is already a very powerful spell and I’m a little scared of buffing it. I’d rather leave EMP alone, and instead slightly nerf Storm, perhaps by giving it a small animation showing where it will hit (like Corrosive Bile, but much shorter, like 1/2 second) or something to this effect. Just my low-league opinion though…
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Are you dumb ? Yes you are gold league… Please disable posting for non master accounts on this forums. 90% of posts are clutter from low league noobs, which has idea what are talking about…
On community update: yes warprism are strong… But why the heck you wonder that terran can’t punish protoss third. You realize, that protoss isn’t supposed to get natural faster than terran and than having fully saturated third with upgrades and production + tech. There was a choice in hots, protoss could choose fast third, or production and upgrades. Problem is in lotv he gets it all at the same time. Wow stimpack is about 20 second faster, but my opponent still gets +30 chargelots from fast third and upgrades… If you fixed protoss economy, it would both fix tvp and pvz.
Problem is, mule was nerfed, it hurts terran even in tvz, now terran playing with less money.
Because of less minerals per patches, if you mule wrong patch, you broke your mineral line and now if mule expires with minerals, you lose even more money…
So terran macro mechanics got harder, while protoss and zerg macro mechanics got easier.
-chrono cost 50: meaning that it takes less multitasking and better for upgrades+ protoss warpgates autotransform automatically and protoss doesn’t even have to hotkey his gates !!!
-zerg has inject queue making injects easier
SO there is that… and protoss also starts with 50 energy on nexus, which allows him get extra fast natural before cybernetics core,or expand after cybernetics core and cancel yet terrans expaand with adept!!!
Than protoss economy get boosted from another free chronoboost on natural nexus into fully saturated third when terrans just finished, with no drawback, still get full production + tech and upgrades. So if protoss expand normally as it was in hots, also zvp would be fixed, because protoss all ins wouldn’t be that strong and zerg would be fine…
Only good change is nerfing warprism, because it is to strong, range to large, terran wasting scans for dts… And can save units, without losing warprism… And also it has potential of warping 20 supply. One warprism on map, terran can’t even move out, because of pontetial waprims 20 supply on map…
BTw don’t know how zerg have problem scouting in zvp, overlords are faster, you can fly over whole base without losing it and overlord speed is t1, you can scout whole base for cost of 100/100 and not lose overlord + you can send overlord to whole map and have perfect vision, without risking losing to much overlord…
As you said buffing stim, will only make terran go 100% tank all in againt protoss, because it doesn’t fix matchup. YOu addressing wrong problems. Problem is economy, revert economy to hots and maybe revert collusus how it was…
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![:-1:](https://d212vo0owly06i.cloudfront.net/en/sc2/images/emoji/twitter/-1.png?v=6" ":-1:")
(downvote.)
stop spamming, you are gold league, no offence, but you don’t know anything… comments like terran players have to learn build towers is stupid and is not constructive post, gtfo …
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Terrans have the strongest AA towers in the game, so it’s not stupid for players to use ‘em.
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We need something to mitigate the late game BS with all the Z spellcasters. it appears Blizz don’t have the balls to do anything about how broken infestors are at the moment.
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I ![:heart:](https://d212vo0owly06i.cloudfront.net/en/sc2/images/emoji/twitter/heart.png?v=6" ":heart:")
memes!!!
Ur not even ranked this season so if there was a ban on non-masters, u would be banned with the rest of us.
Besides these forums are open to everyone because they are public. A bronze league player can complain that bunker rush is broken if they want. If you want to make a starcraft discord server for only master’s then go ahead. You are criticizing people for throwing ideas out which you can do, but if you are refrencing leagues, then dont bother. How do we know u didnt maphack your way to masters? League profiling isn’t good
cross your fingers for the july 15th changes
I think one of the things that is so hard in tvp is that terran is able to kite so easily. zealots almost become useless. stalkers really have no play except early and to counter certain units before they die. EMP is going to go to ghost in late game. usually when you have ghost out you have to pick to go cols or disruptor both are easy kills for terran with Vikings and siege and kite. I like the warp prism play though makes it so that in early game the all in is more easily handled. one of the hardest things to deal with is battle mech or race car mech as zerg or protoss that needs to be addressed. terran have siege mode to deal but zerg or protoss just get kited away. cyclone and helion play is what I mean. as for stim pack it will assist in early game as that is terrans weakest area. I like that you do bring out balance play cause as an old starcraft player back in stardat days you had to play the race one way vs other races, and it is going back to that again. I hope changes will benefit so you can play different openers for each race
but can also be a statistics think. if you have from 80-120 games 6 games in which the unit comp is and 5 of the 6 games it wins. Then that’s ok because it rarely occurs. Plus that blizzard design wants every race to have a strong phase.
First of all the terran buffs seem to be nice. Hope EMP wont be too strong but whatever helps terran is fine. I guess it only affects lategame and lategame bio isnt really good anyway without libs. (so now i got the sympathy of all terrans ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d212vo0owly06i.cloudfront.net/en/sc2/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
)
But i dont get the inconsistency of the Post at all.
“What we’ve seen from tournaments tells a somewhat mixed story—overall global tournament winrates have remained close, with Protoss even arguably underperforming in the WCS circuit.”
they say they arent sure about Protoss but nerf them anyway. They talk about the “the strength of Protoss in general” but dont adress how it comes that tournamentwise and ladderwise (Percantage of Zerg players in Diamond/Masters compared to the overall Population above all leagues) Zerg is very dominant.
" Currently, we believe PvZ is in a state where defender’s advantage is not sufficient for the Zerg player in the early game, when scouting can often be limited to a Zergling running into the Protoss army exiting their base."
This is just a lie. I mean the problem is that the Zergs see the Immortal all in far from distance but they still fail to do something against it. Thats the problem. They all got an overlord at a safe position at the natural and a second overlord at the main base to see whats up. So i dont get the point they make. Improving scouting information is not the answer.
While they talk about the “defender’s advantage” and nerfing recall (with the same small circle) because this defenders advantage was probably too good they still dont adress the nydus. Recent cups or tournaments (hsc/wcs) should display more than enough that the nydus is not really want they want especially when they want more defenders advantage.
“For all these perceived benefits, we acknowledge that this is one of the riskiest mid-year changes we’ve ever proposed. First and foremost, we’re concerned that this change might be too heavy-handed and would overly neuter Protoss all-ins. And while this change more directly and obviously hurts Protoss all-ins, it also weakens macro play both by reducing the threat of potential attacks and reducing the strength of warp-in harass. In PvT in particular, we also have concerns that this change could further push Protoss towards the already very popular Robotics Bay openers.”
They even say it: Based on no real facts they risk to completly disturb protoss only to nerf the korean all ins against zerg while they dont nerf the warp prism juggle which actually would have a huge impact for said koreans.
they acknowledge the fact that zerg is very favored in lategame (“The feedback we’ve received surrounding Zerg’s perceived late-game advantage in ZvP centers a lot around Infested Terrans and their ability to fight Interceptors”) but they dont say “this is one of the riskiest mid-year changes we’ve ever proposed to zerg” but instead to protoss who “even arguably underperforming in the WCS circuit”.
And i dont think its done with nerfing infested terrans. Its a huge impact that a midgame unit can freeze, neural, lowering dps (fungal interceptor) and destroy the “strongest” toss lategame unit while you can sit (sometimes burrowed) in the middle of your creep spamming infested terrans with rapidfire. Sometimes its like burrowed banes vs marines at a larger scale and thats kinda sad.