Community Update - July 1, 2019

General Discussion
255

Before the heavy use of Wp and most Protoss builds were Stargate the warpin time was not affected and did not affect production cycles. No one complained and even major tournaments were won.

I also disagree that most of your units abilities are locked behind upgrades. To begin Protoss excluding the armor attack and shield upgrades have a total of 10 upgrades. In comparison Terran with 16, now 17 (emp upgrade, is leading with most upgrades. If there is any race that is locked behind upgrades it’s Terran.

What they did to the WP is what they did to the mine. They locked the ability behind an upgrade. In fact your upgrades are more efficient as they unlock multiple abilities for a unit… charge grants movement speed/ damage and charge ability. You are the only race that has 1 upgrade for ur main unit. Both upgrades for observer and Wp increases both speed and acceleration. If ever blizzard has always granted u with abilities right from the start besides the blink / shadow strike and charge and storm, everything else improves the range, damage, speed of your units.

256

Stim upgrade time reduce.
Agree, give terran more option in aggressive style. Byun 3 rack style is back with more terran early game choice, babe!

Prism warping nerf.
I agree the fact that protoss prism mechanism is very strong when playing aggressive in the early game, something as strong as zealots will instantly teleport on the battlefield, even zergling will struggle a bit to catch in production rate, it is also a elephant in the room of terran.

However the nerf is somehow a bit too much in my own opinion, robo bay is gas heavy, and also the construct and upgrading time, which in total is almost a 2 mins delay, therefore all those legacy of protoss 2 base 8 gates aggression is not just a nerf but a completely shutdown.
i would say give 4 to 11 is just too much on top of shutting down the opening.
Give something in return like give zealots adept extra charge in gate but increase reload time in warp gate mode, so at 7min mark protoss can still use the same tatic but some discount on building cost.

Carrier, yes give them a bit more love. Glory for the cost production rate efficiency of intercepter

Infested terran, 14 to 12, so its less powerful but we still love infestor.

257

It is a little bit sad what is being done to the Protoss players, finally there was a stable stage in which Protoss became a viable race to play with and you guys want to change it. Take a look at the presence over all in finals within and out of Korea it is usually TvZ now that we see more Protoss on the latest levels it is not a reason enough to attempt to hinder their abilities. Of course everyone wants a fair game, but there might be other options to consider, even leaving the Races as they are for longer period of time maybe 1 or 2 years of data will be enough to surface the real difficulties and challenges players currently face with their matchups.

258

That warp prism nerf is HUGE, seriously this will break all protoss matches big time on higher level. If blizzard does that, there needs to be some serious compensation for protoss late game.

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259

Ok if you think chargelot can be countered by liberators that will be late game and terran have 3 bases at least . Mass Chargelot was never alone and seriously not all Protoss are dumb enough to A move with a siege liberator without having 2/2 and with storm or 2 armor w/ splash.

The actual argument is you cant stop toss to make chargelots like how terran will be stopped to make mass libs because its useless against late game Tempest ,

You cant mass bio in general can be countered by either robo units and specialy storm so you have to cut bio ,

Lings banes countered by widow mines it doesnt really feel like that. In all stages of the game Zealot can be massed and be effective in all stages of the game. And to counter it it takes a lot of effort and Army positioning.

Have you tried smurfing in lower leagues and just play with a chargelot opener and a prism harass then fast 3rd and 4th nexus against a low apm terran That 2 base mass chargelot strat opener to 2 base all in with archon. and just ez scout with hallucinated phoenix . The patch basically just fixes early game mid terran problems securing that 3rd base to 4th expansion getting to that 2/2 timing.

Prism basically still the same with the upgrade they basically hit the toss snowballing effect in early to mid game .

You basically have to choose thermal lance and either turlte and wait for that prism upgrade or to be agressive so it basically gives enough terran a time to get those 2/2 bio upgrades and securing that third and 4th base without taking that much damage . TvP will be all about enggagement now thats how i feel about the changes they will do.

Honestly i hate that era that TvP Starcraft 2 was all about KILLING WORKERS. 1st Fast Oracle GG . Widow Mine Drop GG timing.

 The actual problem now is the PvZ . imagine being hit with prism nerf and get played with a 3 base zerg timing push w/ nydus and you basically need to get that prism upgrade to counter push zerg well since you dont usually use thermal lance go immortals so it wouldnt be much of an issue i think the actual problem is the Recall .

  If a blink timing against terran sniping stim or killing bio without stim and harass w/ prism gets u ahead in ealry stages of the game and that strat is completely killed in this patch you should be happy as a toss why?  If you think getting those free win against terran with that kind of strat what you call rts its not to me You basically already won at that point and you know it even the terran knows it as well and for the sake of loving the game its either he does an scv pull or an all in Then BM's . Basically if i where a toss in his shoes i just gladly take an eco lead and play with a crippled terran race and play the late game to enjoy the game , its like playing TvZ and if you know u won already just get eco lead and play the late game and either lose or win just to enjoy the game . I will admit to my sins but i know some players do i what to do.
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260

Never said I was lol.

261

I like the fact that you fell for a meme.

262

I hope that you realised that I was trolling the commenter that was saying that cannon rushes are the most broken strategy in the game and that they need to be nerfed.

263

Welcome to what 2018 was for Terran.
Blizz will patched out every all-in and cheese that worked, and didn’t give the slightest f-k that normal macro game is extremely one-sided.

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264

Sigh…

Literally your entire response is irrelevant to the conversation.

My league is irrelevant.

What you personally watch or witness is irrelevant.

What is and isn’t easy for me is both irrelevant and not even mentioned by me at all.

I know that language carries lots of difficult nuance, but saying “there are lots of counters to cannon rush” is not the same thing as saying “everything is easy for me.” You’re intentionally exaggerating what I’m saying because you don’t actually have any meaningful response to what I really did say.

News flash. You’re not saying anything at all. At best your evidence is anecdotal. Come back with real data on just how prolific and successful cannon rushes are and maybe I’ll listen to you. Don’t have that data? Then you don’t matter.

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If terran survives to all 1 base Protos all ins and proxys possible, even Toss can still going 2 Gate 2 Stalker, adept harras in to macro, but im Agreed, now is more viable te 3 rax stim all in, and im shure all terrans will tempted to do that, no 1 Terran want to go mid late game whit that Carrier Buff

266

Interesting change to warp prism, About the mass recall change feels like is great for the balance, but not more exciting for the spectator, personally think Protos is a very powerfull race, but 0 movile, and this make the toss units need to be so strong, i think Zealot nerf is necesary, but the movility buffs to Protos need to be necesary, protos should have more Harras potencial but some unist should be nerfed too in other way Protos will stay more Powerfull vs Terran and sensitively more weak vs Zerg

267

You know what the difference between being in plat is and not having played SC 2 before? Apparently it’s “I think there’s a dozen counters to a cannon rush.” It’s cute. Keep at it. Maybe you can get to 100 counters, while having countered nothing. “Hey guys, I just countered the computer on easy mode. Add another one.”

I’m not trying to be rude. But, you’re asking for it by being just that, by being that brash.

I saw that you also did a post in like 2012 or something where you had a huge list of counters to cheese builds. When I was in Platinum league, I wasn’t professing to even know the names of units, because it was my first week playing SC 2. By the second week, I’m pretty sure I had moved on to Diamond league, and I still had no clue about anything.

Some know what they know and don’t know. Others just think they know everything. Name some counters to cannon rushing, since you know so many of them.

I’ll name the “counter” I saw Scarlett use last night. Try to expand to another base and pray to god his probe doesn’t find my base in time to cannon rush it or steal the gas. That’s probably your second best “counter:” wishing upon stars that your base doesn’t get found. Seem solid to you? “Well… at my league no one scouts anything, so yeah!”

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268

Uuuuh it actually is?
There’s a huge difference between a Plat doing cannon rush and a Grand Master doing cannon rush. A good plat player can scout a cannon rush and be able to prepare and counter it because the plat cannon rusher isn’t all at great at doing cannon rush properly. A grand master however can do cannon rush almost flawlessly, and this one can be almost impossible to stop.

Some strategies have a completely different strenght depending on the league u’re in, a late game build from master could not work in plat just because it’s more likely ur opponent’s going for cheese or some quick all in, while those same all ins wouldn’t be all that viable at masters just because the players at masters are much better at dealing with this sort of early aggression while going for a more macro focused build, unlike plat.

So yeah, leagues are relevant.

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269

It’s really just disrespectful to those who have put the games in and have tried so hard to come up with counters to things. For instance, I even came up with an “innovative build” of 12 pylon on the high ground, and 13 gateway on the low ground, placed where the most abusive cannon spot is.

I swear this is crazy but true. You have to go 12 pylon, 13 gateway and chrono out a zealot, and have the guy try to make a cannon right next to your gateway, to even have a chance of the zealot being able to kill the cannon before the zealot dies.

Even then… it’s no guarantee. If the guy’s probe even gets one hit on your zealot, your zealot will die first if they timed their cannon right. Is that not freaking amazing? It’s amazing to me. Take that fact and tell me how realistic a dozen counters is.

Printf has a 70%+ win rate in P vs P every season on NA GM, while not playing on a barcode and doing the same strat over and over. Most guys are trying to blind counter him, since they have a hard enough time beating him when they “play like a hacker,” as is.

It’s a strat that requires the defender to be a lot better than the cannon rusher, since there’s hardly any counters to speak of, if any, and… they’re just making pylons and cannons.

It just reminds me of the meme of “I’d be GM too if I had 300 APM. Those guys just play faster than I do.”

The Scarlett example sums it up. At GM, if they don’t find your base… it’s because you won something that was less than a coin flip, % wise. It just happened to be the last base they scouted type of thing. If you’re in plat… your odds go up because odds are they’re going to forget to scout, in the first place. There’s only so much you can glean from games where your opponent is still trying to learn the basics…

This guy wouldn’t turn down a “show match” with him. I’d probably beat his cannon rushes really easy, too, and would have learned nothing from it.

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271

You know what? You’re right. Leagues are relevant. You’re not a pro player? Can’t make it to gsl? Well then your opinion is irrelevant too.

How about we stop trying to measure dicks, and you go find me one single piece of non-anecdotal evidence suggesting cannon rushes have abnormally high win rates and/or are used as a strategy too often.

272

No, leagues are completely irrelevant. If you want to make them relevant then thats fine with me. Just about every person on this thread should delete their comments. Only pro players who have qualified for WCS should be able to comment. Maybe we should limit it further. After all, the difference between NA WCS and GSL is huge. So from now on, don’t comment on anything if you can’t qualify for gsl. Otherwise you’re way too bad at the game to have an opinion.

Still want leagues to be relevant? Because the reality is your opinion is almost as worthless as mine if we’re going to do that.

The claim is cannon rushes have an insanely high win rate and are used as a strategy too often. Come back with some proof of those claims (beyond “omg they use it against me all the time,” that’s called anecdotal evidence and its worthless) and maybe your opinion will be worth something.

273

Should I take this comment into account? by dae’hur I should not interact with inferior beings. bunch of silly terrans and whiners. go to hell…

274

3 comments in a row, instead of just editing. Truly a waste of space, in all regards. Name a more hated strategy in this game than the cannon rush. What do you think makes more sense, a game which is enjoyable or one which is more synonymous with torture?

Your arguments couldn’t be any worse. If this strategy is so easily counterable that it’s not viable in pro leagues and everyone in the world hates playing against it, then… guess which strategy should probably be removed/nerfed first?

Making the game more enjoyable/better, while having no effect on pro gaming. What could be better? It almost sounds like it would result in more people playing the game. “Can’t have that because… ugh… I’m a super pro plat player that has 50 counters to that strat. I’d miss out on free points! Would tank my rank.”

I’m still waiting on what the counters are to cannon rushing, btw. I don’t make up crazy things, unlike some. I’ve checked my opponent’s win rates, after every game, for years and have verified who is cannon rushing every game. They ALWAYS have the highest win rate in GM.

During the blink stalker all-in era, I went on Korea ladder and looked at the win rates of every Toss player and checked their match history. Every single one that was doing this strat every game had around a 66% win rate or better. Now, I couldn’t win with this strat to save my life, but I still had to acknowledge it must be broken.

You can’t even get out of Plat, yet you can’t acknowledge there might be a reason that GM players are losing to cannon rushing at a higher rate than anything else. I’d rather call the difference between me and you experience, rather than something more painful.

If Scarlett is complaining to Blizzard to nerf cannon rushing, cause she views it as a free win, when cannon rushing is by far the strongest against Toss, then who should feel like their comments in regard to cannon rushing are Plat level?

Wonder what’s more likely… you like cannon rushing people or you’re some kinda low level guru who knows how to counter everything in the game and the reason you’re not in a higher league is some mythical reason. I play in a league where balance can dictate ranks. You play in a league where you just not have to be full of s to improve.

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275

canon rush is not healthy for the game as well as drop of mines widows in the earlygame and nydus rush 3:40 mass ling, can be defended? they can! But it’s not cool to have ridiculous strategies so any retarded makes and wins from top opponents.

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