Toss has no answer to viper, infestor, broodlord. Add in spores for extra lol. Toss is pretty reliant on a warp prism, indirectly, killing off your tech once you get to that point.
Toss vs Zerg late game is like when Terran tries to play late game vs Zerg without making any ghosts. If Zerg knows what they’re doing, they’re going to win. It’s why pros refuse to play styles that are late game oriented.
i doubt there is no answer to that kind of composition that the zerg can get, the answer is most likely more simple then people realize imo, i’d also say and keep in mind that no player is perfect as well, including professionals.
Every pro has agreed the “answer” is to “not let them get there.” The only real surprise is that it has taken Toss this long to realize that Zerg is unbeatable, late game. It’s easier to play carrier styles now than it was then, just due to being able to attack sooner.
Maps aren’t really big enough these days for Zerg’s immobility to really be a big enough deal to trump just how over powered that comp is in straight up fights. And to fight that comp, you also have to make a largely immobile comp, so it really just comes down to head to head strength, which is very skewed.
like i said, no one is perfect so we do not know for sure.
I have to agree, even if i’m not that great of a player myself i can see from far the potential that late game zerg has over protoss, mostly because of the viper, which is imo the strongest zerg unit.
If protoss makes a huge robo army, even if they have stalkers and archons in the mix the viper can just blinding cloud them and the toss army is pretty much gone because they’re unable to atk, so this is one of the reasons y toss’s recall shouldn’t be nerfed.
Skytoss can also be countered by hydras, corruptors, infestors and even viper’s parasitic bomb. Extra points if toss has a mothership and the zerg steals it with a infestor or abduct it with a viper.
… actually mothership is pretty much useless against a zerg that has either of those
Well, this sounds like a found-dangerous experiment.
Goodbye ez 3rd! Good news!
Starting to come around to how the WP nerf was done after playing with it a little. Once you get the speed upgrade you have faster warp again.
However, there are so many other ways to nerf the warp prism instead of the warp in speed. Speed, Shield HP, pick up range, deploy mode not being able to carry units, etc
You seem to understand
SC2 better than devs ![:open_mouth:](https://d212vo0owly06i.cloudfront.net/en/sc2/images/emoji/twitter/open_mouth.png?v=6" ":open_mouth:")
That’s really cool how objective you seem. A rarity, unfortunately. I’ve always felt the viper is the strongest unit Zerg has. Shoot, I already think it’s unfair that it doesn’t have a specific building. A Zerg with a hive can mean anything…
A couple vipers, if used well, can easily win the game by themselves. But, infestors really need more of a critical mass before it’s just “face palm city.” I’ve recently had the chance to play a lot of the top EU Zergs, sans serral. They don’t seem to mess around. They really, really mass infestors.
If the other guy always has 30 infestors… then I can see why most of these EU guys are adamant that the infestor is the most broken unit. There isn’t anything you can do versus MASS infestor except laugh. That mono “comp” actually counters EVERYTHING.
A nerf of 2 damage to a unit that counters everything is almost as funny as ignoring cannon rushing. I rarely make a mothership against Zerg. I only make it once it’s clear the game is basically in stalemate territory. More of a fall back plan than a go to plan.
Thanks o/
I can see y u feel like it deserves a building of its own, but at the same time i can kinda see why it doesn’t have.
After Lair Zerg needs to make an infestation pit and then go to a Hive. That means u’ll always be able to make infestors before vipers, and the only units you get after vipers are broodlords and ultras, which are very late game situational units. Making vipers have its own building would mean either it getting unlocked at Lair tech or at very late game since u’d need to wait for a Hive to be done and then wait for yet another building to be finished, and that could be painful for a spellcaster unit that i personally consider to be a late mid game unit, so i feel it’s the way it is because of tech timing rather than deserving a building (that and i feel like the infestation pit would fit it more than any other building).
And yeah, i can see mass infestors doing a lot of work on their own when massed. I personally don’t try making infestors myself because ik i don’t have either the time or micro to use them properly, so i’d rather stick with making a decent army and then blinding clouding my enemies to death.
The only proper counter i can see to mass infestors is if you’re terran and has ghost to EMP them down, as for protoss i can’t rly see any proper counter…
I can think of 3 things that could work but i feel like it comes to luck or the zerg not paying much attention to what’s going on (which is hard at pro level):
Here’s something i just thought abt that maybe u could try to do if u can micro it properly and if the zerg is also using infestors to defend against small groups of units: try to harrass multiple bases with some groups of zealots, if they split part of their infestors to defend any of their bases u could try and come in with phoenixes and observers, pick them up and kill them (maybe a squad of oracles could also work). Infestors are really slow when burrowed, if you manage to separate some of them you might be able to pick them off that way.
And if they literally only have infestors, wouldn’t a zealot collossus comp be able to break them?
At the end of the day infestors are kinda like marines, so they should die very quickly to collossus, so if you manage to use zealots to wall them so they don’t hit your collossus i feel like you might be able to burn the infestor’s entire energy and then snowball into their base. You might wanna have plenty of stargates at home to be able to spam zealots quickly enough tho.
I played against Vibe when he was “trolling” by only making infestors. Only unit made all game, besides queens. That “comp” seriously annihilates everything in the game.
It’s the kinda stuff that would either make everyone quit SC 2 or switch to Zerg. The thing is, SC 2 is a clown fiesta all the way around. To unlock the full imbalance, you need to know about rapid fire and use it. Basically, people who use gimmick settings and have the best keyboards for the gimmick = unbeatable.
When what type of keyboard you use and what settings you use determines whether you can be beaten or not, it shouldn’t be any surprise when things seem like a joke in the game. It’s just a circus that is pretending to be something more serious than that.
I just think that every unit in the game has a type of building associated with it, except the queen. To have, possibly, the strongest unit in the game not have any “warning building” just seems to add to my belief that they couldn’t care less about Z vs P imbalance. Anything that makes Serral never lose, the better.
P vs Z has always been like this, if Zerg played properly. However, in the past, it was mostly just Stephano who microed properly enough to display just how invincible Zerg late game is.
I just saw this video a couple minutes ago, by Lambo. You should check it out: ZvP Lategame Army Guide (Micro and Unit Composition) - YouTube
The question isn’t whether Toss can win, but more of a question of… umm… can Toss even kill a Zerg unit? It really just showcases how out of touch the balance team is with balance. 90 years from now, cannon rushing could have a 100% win rate and be viewed as the most hated thing in the entire world, yet… won’t even hear about it. Yet, let’s all group think about what to nerf next for Toss. It’s sad.
To add: tonight I saw Scarlet in twitch chat saying she has been complaining to Blizzard that cannon rushing vs Zerg is a free win. Got printf on the balance team, I guess. Couldn’t care less about late game or most hated strat ever.
Just finished watching the vid, and yeah it’s just that broken…
The issue with balancing this kind of unit is that either they’re broken or they’re useless, there’s no in between, it’s the same thing that happened with mecha infestors for coop, they used to be the most broken unit in the entire history of SC2, and now after its 2nd nerf it’s barely not viable anymore.
And yeah, tho doing that to the settings is pretty much unlock the potential of doing a perfect spell micro for a spellcaster (which is usually what an AI can always do without issues), i just wish this would work for everyone instead of needing a specific keyboard for things to work properly.
Also I see now why you wanted a building for vipers… i feel like a good way to add another building just for them would be to make a lair tech building that takes as long to finish as it takes a lair to morph into a hive.
About the cannon rush, i feel like they could easily fix this issue with a simple nerf to pylon’s build time.
Simply: if pylons are more than 4 pylon-energy range away from a finished nexus or more than 2 pylon-energy range away from any other finished protoss structure other than an assimilator the pylon takes double the time to finish building.
This could make cannon rushes completely obsolete and very easy to counter.
And well while infestors aren’t nerfed, all i can do is try and think on a way to maybe defeat a Zerg that goes for mass infestors.
It seems clear that one just can’t defeat this kind of comp by going for a normal late game meta build for protoss, so the only thing i can think that maybe could work is going for a crazy out of the meta build.
The builds i saw in that video mostly relies in infestors, corruptors, broodlords, vipers and some hydras, and the thing about those builds is that they’re rly not all that mobile. They do great against the late game builds for protoss because they’re equally slow, so once you see the zerg transitioning into it try going for stalkers, phoenixes and oracles, so instead of beating this army try and fight away from them and pick out zerg’s bases, pretty much playing protoss as if it was zerg (that but also keeping some tempests and void rays around the main path to prevent creep spread). If you manage to get map control like that, try getting as many bases as you can and keep the pressure on. If you get to a point where u’re starting to outmine the zerg and their infestors start to spread between their bases, try to slowly make late game units and then start atking bases with lower def with them, if they big army gets close recall ur army and send more stalkers into another base.
Idk if this kind of strategy would work, but well if you know the normal build won’t work, maybe doing something different could work.
Either a forge should require a gateway to build, or a cannon should require both a forge + a gateway to build.
The cannon-rush is currently the strongest opening for protoss. It is also the strongest opening of any race in the game. It became stronger when we started with 12 workers instead of 6 because they have the income to build many pylons and cannons by the time their first probe arrives. This allows them to build pylons in such a way as to decrease surface area of where you need to attack.
It’s not a "cheese’ strat that depends on not being scouted anymore. If the first probe is spotted, they just run around and drop the pylons anyway. They can wall off an area using pylons and then sit inside and start dropping cannons.
Even with a perfect response, it will cost you to defeat a cannon rush. You are either losing a lot of mining time, or you are tailoring your build specifically to deal with a cannon rush. Gone are the days when you would just stick 4 workers per pylon dropped and feel assured it will work out for your favor in the long run.
Another reason why warp prism being gutted is bad for the game. Protoss rely on warp in mechanics to create their army. Limiting that to one tech tree means Protoss can’t warp-in. That simply can’t happen. First of all, Protoss have like 2 prisms top at any one time in the game based on the nature of making the unit whereas Terran have a dozen medivacs flying around at once. Imagine Terran can’t make barracks units if they don’t have a fusion core or Zerg can’t inject without spire. Warping a unit in is not optional. Protoss have the slowest units in the game and rallying over takes infinitely longer than the other races and simply isn’t how the race was designed. If you’re going to make it so Protoss have to rally their units from their own base, then it’s time to double the health and damage gateway units do because it’s getting stupid to have the most expensive, weakest core units that have the least dps and are the slowest as well. You should be able to have some option to put your unit where you want it. You’re removing Protoss’ racial identity by tying “warp-in,” via warp-gates to be stuck to the warp prism locked behind a T3 robo building that is rarely used in 2/3 matchups. Stop making Protoss units come out with half abilities locked behind upgrades or tech paths while other races get those abilities instantly and for free without research or resource cost. Did I buy a trial version of the unit or the actual unit? It’s getting ridiculous blizzard. Also recall is a meme at this point. Just remove it, you’re embarrassing the ability and it doesn’t live up to 1/10th of what recall was in Brood War. Talk about a spell that may have had any excitement or hype in a game and removing it. Nobody cares about recall. Remove the mothership too. Hero units? Is this Warcraft?
dude you’re gold (lmao) telling a GM he hasn’t learned the “skill” required to stop cannon rushing. Why do gold players talk as if they had any clue about the game, the kruger dunning effect in action.
lmao permadiamonds say the darnest things ^.^
dude you’re gold … why do gold players talk as if they had any clue about the game, the kruger dunning effect in action.
I’d criticize Heromarine’s choice on that… Zest was not dns or rusty Mana. He continued to play pure Marine tank when there war Archons, Templars and chargelots. Sure it can work vs worse players on ladder but Zest knows things enough. I see most of the time Maru, Inno would get Ghosts or ranged libs. idremember the situation but still.
And I do not expect Warp Prism to stay that nerfed, but idc this is mostly a PvZ issue i’d say. Stim - revert or not, I think players will take advantage of the new Stim but they are used to the current so it is a buff out of nowhere anything expected
SKILL SKILL SKILL! (and poor preparation)
This is the primary decider in WCS - Neeb is better than all NA’s even Scarlett it seems, so he wins each time. All other players are just … bad for that level.
WCS EU - Zergs are better, Showtime played terribly!
GSL is more of 50-50 and TvP does not look bad, probably the PvZ problems made more Protoss emerge
Same way can be explained full of Protoss GSl Supertournament…everyone was busy on major tournaments and just didn’t prepare for it…but for every gadwin it is a prove that Protoss is OP. Still ZERO major event won by Protoss for three years! They didn’t prepare for them as well???