Co-Op Mutation #242: Temple of Pain

[Espurr-2173]

@UTHERTRUTHBR-1378

It doesn’t matter that they kill more lings, because they are slower to engage and might not catch before they hit the temple.

…What?
150/150 doesn’t hinder economy at all. You should have more than enough gas to get Whirlwind the moment Twilight Council finishes.

And why would you need to chase Zerglings in the first place? They are coming to you. Just stand on their path to the temple, that is all you need to do.

Whirlwind Zealots alone can kill any amount of Zerglings as long as you have enough of them to keep spinning. Even with Avenger. And if you macro right, it should finish right about the time that first wave gets to you.

If you are instead picking Charge first and they all get killed by a swarm of lings, you only have yourself to blame for that.

[UTHERTRUTHBR-1378]

@Elyssaen-2450

There’s a reason that Artanis’s twilight council has the charge upgrade listed first, though this reason doesn’t apply to other twilight councils.
Blizzard places Artanis’s Zealot twilight council ugpraades in the order that they should be researched in, but not other upgrades, just Artanis’s Zealot twilight council upgrades.

If you look at Fleet Beacon for example. It’s pretty much laid out, research left to right. The same as reading.

[Espurr-2173]

So if you get Phoenixes on Cooldown/Energy mastery, you get range upgrade first too?

Because, you know, double Graviton Beam lets Phoenixes survive for longer against ground units than range upgrade (that is only useful if you are going to keep kiting Phoenixes all the time).

[UTHERTRUTHBR-1378]

@Espurr-2173

Because, you know, double Graviton Beam lets Phoenixes survive for longer against ground units than range upgrade (that is only useful if you are going to keep kiting Phoenixes all the time).

Pardon? Why would you be making pheonix for ground comp? You see air, you go for phoenix, in which case you certainly want the range first vs. air.

You also want range when gravitron comes in, because it just makes it so much more efficient. All the other pheonix can attack quicker and from further away.

[Ritz-1736]

Against multiple enemies(and melee), research spin before charge and just wait in the ramp so you engage efficiently.

Against less, powerful enemies with range attack get charge before spin, since the spin adds nothing if you dont hit multiple enemies.

Of course, this is just for early game. Get both eventually.

[Porphyra-1768]

Phoenix are decent for ground comps especially with P1, especially those with limited AA. Double lift means you can clear a wave faster, and also disable more of the AA.
Range is nice, but less impactful overall so should be the second upgrade when against ground.
Plenty of Phoenix will be still be in firing-range of lifts without the upgrade.

And I would also say that spin is much more important than charge, especially against lings etc., but basically all waves,to the point that I sometimes skip charge entirely.
Not going spin first usually means that you end up throwing away units and clear slower.

[Sprite-1655]

First off, this inherently incorrect. The only time in which research is done in order is when research is locked off by other research. Ala Vorazun and Alarak’s Stalkers having their power research blocked by not having Blink researched.
Second, not everywhere reads left to right. Over in Asia, they read right to left.
Third, do you take Ascendant research in order as Alarak? If you do, you’re playing them 100% wrong and need to rethink your life.

[Espurr-2173]

@Sprite-1655

If you do, you’re playing them 100% wrong and need to rethink your life.

Maybe not to the point of rethinking entire life.
But definitely Power Overwhelming should be first (unless, for some reason, you don’t want/need to buff your Ascendants at all?).

[Elyssaen-2450]

@UTHERTRUTHBR-1378

If you look at Fleet Beacon for example. It’s pretty much laid out, research left to right. The same as reading.

So, have you been keeping count of how many other Co-op players you’re disagreeing with now? You didn’t answer my question earlier: are you confident you’re exceptional enough as a Co-op player to be correcting… I think ten? …players?

Let’s try another approach. You tried Artanis against this mutation, right? Playing with an ally? Did you lose? It sounded like it.

Here’s an Artanis player winning that mutation solo (Brutal):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nongs35-Qw

At 5:23 you can see he begins to research Whirlwind first.

You mentioned you just barely beat War is Hell last week with Artanis, with an ally. Here’s a different Artanis player winning it solo:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1McYNNGt0JMHY7gK8WqSes5vg6DMfFN_D/view

You can see them starting Whirlwind first, at 3:30.

You also mentioned playing Time Lock with Artanis. Also with an ally and not solo, I guess? Here’s a third Artanis player winning it solo:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1USgahIyoWktZ1y-nVmX8gyYnDkts-svQ/view

4:09, they start Whirlwind first.

Here’s a link to a former Dead of Night solo speedrun record with Artanis. It was played by Kevin Dong, formerly lead designer of Co-op:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_FHvRgCHF4RQkx2a1JaSDB0Z3M/view?usp=sharing

At 5:47 he begins researching the second Reaver upgrade before the first one.

Are all these players wrong? If so, why are they better at the game than you? Why did one of them go on to become the lead designer of Co-op? How did he get through the interview if he couldn’t understand these design principles you understand?

I asked you not to die on this hill, but you had to go and do it.

[Sprite-1655]

With how bad you just slaughtered that poor person, I think they’d already decomposed into the hill, rather than dying on it.

[UTHERTRUTHBR-1378]

@Porphyra-1768

Phoenix are decent for ground comps especially with P1, especially those with limited AA. Double lift means you can clear a wave faster, and also disable more of the AA.
Range is nice, but less impactful overall so should be the second upgrade when against ground.

I’ve stated this is P0 Arty.

[arms-1885]

@UTHERTRUTHBR-1378

Are you serious? You always get charge first, to make your zealots move faster. It’s also cheaper and less research time. It is meant to be researched first.

@UTHERTRUTHBR-1378

It is less powerful, hence the cost difference. However, it is meant to work together in conjunction with spinlot. I always get both, don’t worry.

Let me get this straight. You lost, we give you feedback, that the way you do things is not good, and you argue that you did the right thing? Wish you all the best.

[NoobIsHere-2370]

Dit it with Swann P1 with a Abathur P0 ally (who did more kills than me and all bonus) against scourge comps.

Lings have so much HP with barriers they ate my goliaths like they were starving :s

[Dehakaburger-3510]

I beat this mutation so many times already (easily over 30 rounds (mostly with Dehaka btw)).

Hands down, this week’s brutation is the most funnest one I had so far for a long time.

[Porphyra-1768]

I said especially P1, not only, they are also decent with P0 when you get the double lift upgrade, and you get it first.

[WireBender-1359]

I mean, Artanis definitely can do it.

StarCraft II Co-op: Temple of Pain Artanis Solo

Pre-prestige patch by the way, so p0.

[AuReaper-2425]

Are we discussing Artanis? You know, the guy, who can warp anywhere on the map with vision?
And about what hinders your economy - the timing of second Nexus and the continuous production of probes is what makes your economy. As long as these two factors are met, it doesn’t matter how you spend your money, your income won’t depend on it.

[Ambrascet-2530]

We couldn’t beat it as both non-level 15 commanders with my partner. But when he changed to Tychus, who is level 15 and I remained as zagara level 9 we managed to do it. Didn’t really struggle until the one-to-last attack wave. The free banelings and scourge were very effective, but I had to manually create these units as well. It seemed that trashers didn’t get barrier.

[UTHERTRUTHBR-1378]

@Porphyra-1768

I said especially P1, not only, they are also decent with P0 when you get the double lift upgrade, and you get it first.

You get range first.

[UTHERTRUTHBR-1378]

@AuReaper-2425

Are we discussing Artanis? You know, the guy, who can warp anywhere on the map with vision?
And about what hinders your economy - the timing of second Nexus and the continuous production of probes is what makes your economy. As long as these two factors are met, it doesn’t matter how you spend your money, your income won’t depend on it.

The question is how do you break the rocks with Arty? How many zealots do you warp in? His nexus is always delayed.