I heard someone chuckle…VORAZUN!!!Get out now with your Dark Pylon mastery 
I send Marauders. Can be an ever better choice on maps where you have to take down buildings anyway, or if you discover you’re against a compo with armored ground.
1 Like
When you place that first pylon down for Artanis, it doesn’t have to be EXACTLY where the old power field is. You can build your gateway on a favorable edge of the field, then build your pylon in a better position with the gateway on its edge. By doing this, even really stupid power field placements at the beginning of the game can be salvaged. And if you need to build a second pylon anyways, you can probably build it AFTER you’ve expanded, got your economy going, and got a small army out. It should in NO way affect your opening.
And if your anything else aside from P2… Just move it for free in the beginning.
Any extra pylons and gates you build afterwords should have NO impact on your initial expansion.
2 Likes
Again you’re reading comprehension is failing. I’ve repeatedly said only half shows.
You can still drop your first gateway forge and cyb core in there. It will have to be moved if you want to ever use the whole pylon field. Why don’t you play those maps and see. It can even happen on dead of night.
Go troll somewhere else.
If you look at the in-game timer (and the tooltip) a gateway takes 65 seconds to warp. Without lag it may take only 46 seconds in real life, but in the game 65 seconds worth of stuff will have happened. Also rocks don’t have armor anymore. It takes 2 zealots 37.5 seconds to do 1000 damage, which is enough time to use orbital strikes twice for the remaining 1000 damage if you’re in a hurry with the rock. There is much more to expanding than just destroying the rock, and there is much more to co-op than just expanding. Despite all the numbers your approach is not very clear. Do you have a replay or a video? Also 2.5 minutes to cast 4 orbitals? Shouldn’t that take 90 seconds?
No, it is done for 6-7min to save time on M’s custom maps. So I don’t have replays for those… at least not somewhere I know to look for.
Many of your questions have been addressed in the discussion already and don’t take away from the overall points. This include the very real 5.5min full saturation on 4xOS vs 6.5min full saturation of the alternative. The OS calculation was done improperly, which is again addressed.
- You get your Nexus built at expansion before 2min. From there 110sec Nexus build time, up by 4min, 15sec probes x 15 / 2 = 112.5sec. So if you somehow only saturated main by 4min mark, then decided to build the rest of probes on expansion, it would still only take about 6min to saturate. Point here 4xOS definitely is a faster expansion/saturation.
- The armor is removed from rocks during a patch, that’s my oversight, but the timings were very real in-game tested. I believe a discussion above addresses this issue. Also, it basically shaves off some seconds on the calculation. Nothing significant.
- First OS doesn’t have 30sec restriction.
- If you include travel time, cast time, etc. then 90sec + 30sec is clearly reasonable.
None of that matters. The small details are not going to break or make an opener. The point was to showcase that the “so called advantage” from chrono is not really true.
You can also read up on my other recent post regarding Chrono Boost Mastery Analysis for more information.
And yes lol, all timers referred here are in-game times.
I was shocked to read this so just tested this, but prediction and observations match perfectly.
A nexus at normal speed takes 17 seconds to make a probe, a nexus working 22.5% faster takes 17/1.225 ~= 13.9 seconds and a nexus working 52.5% faster takes 17/1.525 ~= 11.1 seconds
In maguro’s map with a zeratul ally that only has regular chrono I wait until the timer is nice and round before I make a probe and as predicted 17 seconds later without chrono, 14 seconds with zeratul’s chrono and 11 seconds with artennis’ chrono.
I made 3 forges one without and 2 with 22.5% and 52.5% chrono, and started 3 research simultaneously. And as expected from a building that operates 52.5% faster by the time it finished the 22.5% chrono building’s progress was at 129/160 and the non-chrono building’s progress was at 105/160. By the time the 22.5% chrono building finished the non-chrono building’s progress was at 131/160. The values 105/160 and 131/160 match with the values 1/1.525 and 1/1.225. A nexus that operates 52.5% faster is literally worth 1.525 and one that operates 22.5% faster is worth 1.225… (in terms of production at least)
1 Like
The actual calculation is 1/1.225 (22.5%) = 81.6% or 18.4% faster time.
- 17 - 17 x 18.4% = 17 - 3.1 = ~14sec
Similarly, 1/1.525 (52.5%) = 65.6% or 34.4% faster time. - 17 - 17 x 34.4% = ~11sec
However, I realized during making the post that if I used those theoretical numbers it isn’t necessarily accurate. It doesn’t include human operation error. So I thought it best to include my own eye-hand coordination error to better mimic the issue, which doesn’t change the overall message. 
As for the actual benefit, we can take 34.4% - 18.4% = 16% real difference. So if anyone took a look at my other “chrono thread”, the estimation was at 15% benefit, which is quite a good estimate and easier to use. The saved time on research through a game, under many assumptions that wont’ be true (for using chrono mastery), would give it only 3min at most (at the cost of slower expansion for at least 1-2min for many COs). So it is quite literally a trap to choose Chrono if the premise of belief is “it is faster”. It really isn’t.
No idea what is really optimal, but this is how i do it:
- Raynor: marines for killing rocks, dusk wings for guarded expos (unless guarded expo can be taken with 8 or so marines… e.g. Malwarefare)
- Kerrigan: always macro hatch (main base) before pool. Zerglings for rocks / weakly guarded expo, otherwise kerrigan.
- Artanis: 2 orbital + zealot expand for rocks / weakly defended expos, otherwise 3 or so dragoons + orbital strike.
- Swann: 2 blaster billies for rocks, war bots for guarded expos.
- Zagara: zerglings for rocks / weakly guarded expo. Add some banelings for medium guarded expo like on Chains of Ascension. Zagara for heavily guarded expo like Scythe of Amon
- Vorazun: Shadow guard expand. Sometimes i use stalkers to take down rocks earlier.
- Karax: usually with SoA energy. Some maps require 1 zealot for vision / utility (e.g. chains of ascension - burrowed ultralisks won’t unburrow if only a probe or building is nearby, part & parcel)
- Abathur: 1 toxic nest and spines for rocks, toxic nests if you can lure expo guards, UEs for anything else
- Alarak: structure overcharge. Some maps require a supplicant (e.g. chains of ascension - burrowed ultralisks)
- Nova: marines mostly. You can expand with turrets, but due to their cost & build time, I think they are not much faster (if at all) than marines.
- Stukov: first spawn of infested civilians or apokalisk
- Fenix: kaldalis or taldarin for rocks, taldarin & warbringer for lightly guarded expos, Fenix for anything else
- Dehaka: zerglings for rocks, dehaka + zerglings for guarded expos
- Han & Horner: galleons & reapers for rocks, + some mines for guarded expos.
- Tychus: 2 turrets for rocks, tychus for anything else
- Zeratul: 2 stalkers for rocks, 3 stalkers for guarded expos (for heavily guarded expos they need Zeratul)
- Stetmax: zerglings for rocks, garry & zerglings for anything else
- Mengsk: for rocks start sending built troopers after main base is saturated, for guarded expos: 10-20 troopers + depot calldown
Not to go too far off topic, but Dusk Wings are generally a better expo strategy. Reason being it’s better to get a third CC/OC up asap.
Not that 4 Marine style is bad, and it’s coop so it doesn’t matter too much, but it does slow down subsequent OCs quite a bit. Largely due to the fact that you don’t need to make a single unit until after your first Hyperion once you figure out where you need to use the big guy.
Claiming something about others without actually knowing, is not a good strategy for a discussion - especially not for a public one.
Not only might you be wrong, you apearently are not noticing you might be wrong, while readers do - that does not put you in the greates light.
Also there is such a thing as theory, which can provide insight and knowledge without experience. Actually this is the kind of knowledge, that almost all human knowledge is comprised of.
1 Like
Maybe when you are using dusk wing cooldown? I use a 50/50 split with hyperion cooldown, as i think it has way greater utility. In that scenario IIRC, dusk wings take down rocks slower than marines due to cooldown.
Btw: you can stim your marines a few times (4 times i think) even without any medics. That speeds things up a bit.
Mastery effects the cooldown after the first use, not the initial one. So it should be the same regardless.
That said, because Raynor effectively has the longest build time for his expo (cause you morph it to an OC as well), breaking his rocks that little bit slower isn’t too big a concern for him overall. Granted, using Dusk Wings to break his rocks can be a bit slower than that anyway, provided you need to use them for the first attack wave as well.
It’s really just all about getting those extra OCs up sooner so they can start making bank asap.
All that said, nothing wrong with doing it your own way. The only actually important thing is getting your expo sooner rather than later. How one does it doesn’t matter all that much (apart from a certain notorious example)
Did another retest using 4 x OS on M’s Void Launch.
- Full saturation on 2 base definitely by 5:30min.
- Fended off 2 waves solo (6xzeals + 2nd wave scout comp).
- By 6min, 2 x Zealot, 950min/620gas banked, Temple built.
Compare this to 2xZeal + 1xOS on M’s Oblivion Express.
- Full saturation on 2 base by 6:00min.
- Fended off 1 wave solo (6 reapers).
- By 6min, 2 x Zealot, 930min/588gas banked, Temple built.
This basically lines up with everything in OP, the important bits anyway (both approach works). The additional information I wanted to include in this test was to bring the time frames together. By 6min-6.5min, the player should be able to reach end tech. This means Citadel => Temple vs Stargate => Fleet Beacon vs Robo => Bay
From there on, with 2 base economy at 100% for the next 1-2min, by 8min mark, the player should be able to have Archon/Tempests/Reaver if need be. All of which aligns up with mission timings. (Not to say you should use those strategies lol, but illustrating those are the slowest you can do).
You’re normalising the chronoboosted nexus, which of course you’re free to do, but it wouldn’t be accurate to say that the nexus is then 1 - .816 = 18.4% faster. It would be like saying karax’ chrono wave makes buildings 80% faster because 1:5 is .2 : 1 after normalising and 1 - .2 = .8 so voila only 80%.
If a regular nexus produces probes nonstop for 1700 seconds you would have 100 probes, and a 52.5% boosted nexus would have at least 152 by then. If somehow chrono wave was on the entire time and supply wasn’t an issue etc, then each nexus would have made 500 and 762 probes instead. When you have 52% or 500% more probes in the same amount of time I think it’s fair to say the structure operates 52% or 500% faster. If you wanna compare mastery and non-mastery chrono I’d normalise 1.225 : 1.525 to 1:1.245 and say that full mastery is relatively 24.5% faster.
Personally I split the mastery mostly favouring chrono, but to me both are worth more than not having to build 1 or 2 zealots at the start. If I don’t get it please just show it.
3 Likes
But the numbers don’t lie. Not sure what you’re trying to prove.
The 11 and 14 seconds match your own observations.
This means in 1min with mastery Chrono you get 60 / 11 = 5.5 probes. Compare to no mastery 60 / 14 = 4.3 probes.
In a game where saturation of 2 base is between 4-6min. Your hypothetical 1700 seconds is not applicable at all. Who plays the game for 26min and makes probes the entire time? What for? The most you got out of it is 1.2 probes x 5 = 6 probes at most.
Nobody’s “normalizing” anything lol. 6 probes is also definitely significant in a total of 40 or so. That is if you are gaining resources from all 40 vs 34 for x period of time. However, you are not. And you can’t just ignore that cuz it’s convenient for your narrative.
What the technicality here is this. With mastery, not accounting anything else, by the 6min mark, you’d have 6extra probes. So from 6min and on, if you stopped there, economy is faster than non-Chrono.
Yet, what is actually happening is non-Chrono means energy mastery, which saturated on 2base a full 60sec faster. This means it is functioning for 1min at full income while the Chrono counter part is still saturating.
If you can’t understand that is better then it’s not a big deal. Both approach works perfectly fine for brutal. This is coop and not competitive ladder. But math is math. If you want to optimize and don’t believe the results, then do your own game and show us. I guarantee you doing Chrono is not faster.
Incorrect. Majority of human knowledge is based off of practice. Rather than theory.
The theory of evolution, the various belief systems, any of your political affiliations would all like a word with you. Put it this way, for every “practice or proven knowledge” there was a corresponding “theory of said knowledge” that came before it.
Stop derailing the topic with your nonsense. It’s cool you want to discuss, but not only are you talking about things that aren’t related to the topic. You’re arguing about things that you, yourself, clearly don’t understand.
Also, nobody said theory and knowledge are mutually exclusive. Even if you’re right that ‘my theory’ is just a theory. It doesn’t automatically prove that the theoretical data doesn’t match real-life data.
You know what you can do though? Put your action where your mouth is. Do some testing, show us all how crazy often this occurs. And "instead of placing a pylon when field is entirely unusable" or "placing Gateway on the misplaced field", what else you do that apparently nobody else does. You’re basically complaining about a thing that people like me has gone through, people like you going through, and people getting P2 will go through.
In the end, it just all appears that you’re arguing for the sake of arguing to win an internet debate. Let me gift you with your victory. You have won the internet of the day. Congratz.
1 Like
Things rarely can get more wrong than this . Like it’s not even close. Go to a library and pick any high level science book - like plasma physics, semiconductors, genetic modelling, neglected tropical diseases - and then ask around the people you know, how many have had actual real life experience.
Most things were experienced by someone - yes. Mostly by people who have been dead for ages. But not by YOU - and not by me - and not by almost everyone else for that matter.
I know that there was a moon landing… Niels armstrong experienced it - most people have knowledge about that, but 0 experience.
Likewise everything about history that is >150 years in the past, no currently living human has any experience of… but we have tons of knowledge about history.
Then there is mathematics. Many many many things in maths you cannot have experience in… there is only theory… like hyperdimensional cubes or irrational numbers. One could argue you cannot have any experience about anything in maths… not even with stuff as simple as the number 2.
And that goes for almost everything and everyone.
You just simply can’t be much more wrong. Everything you are mentioning already falls under practice. Any medical knowledge, this is practice now.
As it is practiced in modern medical offices. The only thing you have is theory of space. Newton already discovered gravity long ago.
All you really have left is was it the big bang theory? What is a black hole? These are about as theoretical/proven as astrology itself.