Any rational Protoss in existence?

Currently we’ve got:
Protoss 45% of GM
Protoss wins 60% of Major Tournaments (for the year of 2020)
Protoss wins 60% of Premier Tournaments (for the year of 2020)
Protoss has a positive win rate vs Terran for 4 years
Protoss has a positive win rate vs Zerg for several months

Are all of these performance metrics just a non-issue? Are any metrics an issue? Want to add even a single statistic that would convince you your race is either OP or easier than the other two?

Maybe I’m wrong (seriously–I’m quite biased). Maybe Parting is wrong (only half serious about this one–what possible rationale could he have for saying Protoss is favored at every stage of the game?). What metrics would any of you accept?

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I think your numbers are way off and wrong to start with, but I already had that discussion and it’s probably part of your bias. It seems to me that you are just shouting numbers without having actually checked them. For example, take a look at the last patch since 13 august 2020 and compare the amounts of victories per race in the premier tournaments (there just isn’t a reason to leave out any premier tournaments played that patch if you want to calculate your ‘balance of the races’ during that patch)

Results for premier tournaments played under the current patch are as of now:

Protoss wins & runner ups: 9-9 (39% of total premier tournaments won, ±45% GM ladder)
Zerg wins & runner ups: 9-9 (39% of total premier tournaments won, ± 25% GM ladder)
Terran wins & runner ups: 5-5 (21% of total premier tournaments won, ± 30% GM ladder)

I would already be reluctant to count ‘major’ tournaments since u will have to deal with more local tournaments where the winner, contributing to the ‘OP’-ness of whichever race you want it to be can be misleading. For example DH Fall Oceania… is a major tournament which Probe has been winning for years on every patch, while Enderr (who? yes, I know) has been winning DH SC2 Masters 2020 Winter: Oceania / Rest of Asia. But lets say you want to include those as well. Numbers there would be:

Protoss wins and runner ups: 13-10 (48% of the tournaments won, ±45% GM ladder)
Terran wins and runner ups: 13-10 (48% of the tournaments won, ±30% GM ladder)
Zerg wins and runner ups: 1-7 (2% of the tournaments won, 25% ±GM ladder

My first question would be: where on earth did you get the 60% number? My second question would be: do you really want to go this way? Because if a race wins more tournaments with a lesser percentage of the playerbase it could also be perceived as quite telling that that particular race is ‘OP’… In other words be careful what you wish for.

To answer your next question:

The best tell to come to a conclusion that a race for me personally is OP and you can’t do much against it is when you end up with a tournament like blizzcon 2019 (the one with 5/8 in the RO8 and 4/4 in the semis being zerg) where some strategies just couldn’t be beaten by the other races. For me that was one of the biggest abysses this game has been in. I can’t see this in the current patch. If anything, in the really big tournaments (Katowice, DH season finals, TSL, …) it seems to be near equilibrum at the very top. If you look at the numbers there, zerg still wins most of it, but all races have their chance to get their hand on the trophy.

I never understood this terran whining tbf. I would understand it much more if you were talking about broodwar for very obvious reasons Playa already described, but in SC II the difference in required skill to master a race isn’t that high. I will therefore refuse to jump on a bandwagon where a particular race is ‘OP’ in general or at a certain level because it feels easier to justify or uplift ones own performance and downgrade the players who play another race (isn’t that convenient) or to fall victim to emotions of finding it hard being stuck at a certain level (let’s face it: if all 3 races win big tournaments on a regular base, there really isn’t much proof one race is easier or stronger). Further whining that a race is easier/harder at a certain level is also taking the easy way out: one can’t prove it and it will just lead to a cesspool of insults/frustration why your hardest race is hardest and your opponents have it so much easier because they play the easy race.

To conclude: I’m not convinced that all three races are in a perfect balance at every level and I also think that would be impossible, but I am convinced the differences aren’t high. What matters most in a competitive RTS-game is that the game is balanced at the very top: meaning that each race can win so we can have our demigods to look up to and try to improve our game.

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They are for the year of 2021. Patches tend to adversely affect Protoss and Zerg immediately, and benefit them later (as the meta "settles), whereas they benefit Terran at the start.

Of course I don’t want things to “go this way.” This is the way they are going.

You mean the guy who decided that Protoss should dominate the ladder, Protoss players should always have a greatly positive win rate vs Protoss, and the guy who couldn’t get within 1500 MMR of his Protoss and therefore concluded that Terran was easy…

Notice how you just skipped over the win rate data? I guess if the data doesn’t agree with your pre-forgone conclusion, you can just ignore it!

Of course you are. You’re a Protoss player. That’s what I’m saying. Every Protoss just seems to come to the conclusion that the game is in a great spot, while every Terran and Zerg think Protoss are OP (I guess who, Berzerk, and Batz are all Terran players now…).

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Called an “anecdote.”

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This was exactly my point: why did you arbitrarily choose that particular starting point? Why is your meta settling from that date and not a week after the patch was installed or since for example july first 2021 where you would even have perfect balance? You know why don’t you: it fits your narrative better by taking the data starting from beginning this year since it suits that goal better. I think getting all premier tournaments played under that patch is therefore more accurate. It is way more neutral and you can’t verge to a desired outcome.

I didn’t say I agreed with everything he said. He did have some very valid points on the difference in playing terran in scI compared to sc II where in sc II playing terran is a cakewalk compared to sc I. Trying to drag him into the mud and discredit him in the hope to annihilate the valid point he made won’t save you there.

I indeed didn’t go into the winrates. If you use aligulac winrates they aren’t that high and they will tend to an equilibrum over time. I could also go nagging it’s only in the last months toss has a + winrate in a PvZ or that terran has a + winrate in TvZ which is hurting my play (boohoohoo sob sob etc …) but I just don’t want to go that way. It’s a choice you make.

Unfortunately you are wrong here. It is maybe what you want me to be since it would give you another excuse to convince yourself your story is true, but unfortunately for you I play all 3 races (toss and zerg the most).

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I played Terran for less than a month. 4600 MMR. My Toss is not 6100 MMR. The only matchup I had any struggles in, keeping me back, was T vs Z. Given I was already playing decently close games vs GM Zergs, that probably wouldn’t have taken long to figure out, either. But, regardless, the point is stop lying and stop staying stupid stuff.

This scene is so embarrassing.

T vs P in BW is hard enough that nothing about Terran in SC 2 feels hard. It’s very obvious it’s all a lot easier to execute and figure out. It’s not rocket science. Given they say everything is relative, it should be even more obvious. Sesame street level.

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I played Protoss for less than a week, 4600 MMR. My Terran MMR is not 4600, lol.

And if you hadn’t just decided that every other data point was irrelevant, and that only the data you could poke holes in was relevant, we’d have had something to discuss.

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Given all the imaginary numbers you make up and parrot, no point in taking anything you say seriously. If you said it was 100 degrees outside, it could just as well be negative 20. Just absolutely pointless to listen to any of it. If you want your truths to not be lost in the sauce, stop lying as a norm. See you talking now, not even going to bother to read.

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Dude, you actually said: Protoss should dominate the ladder. Terran should always have a negative win rate vs Protoss. Terran is easy. Your brain was actually able to have all 3 of those thoughts, in a row, and while that alone would’ve bad enough, you didn’t even allow yourself to edit it out before you decided write it down. How can one thread contain all that stupid? It almost seems impossible.

I shudder to think what would happen if Terran weren’t so easy. OGS in a coma wins the GSL?

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Why would Protoss players want to give up free wins?

It really goes to show the caliber of players like Reynor, Serral and Maru. They are so outgunned when it comes to playing against Protoss, and yet they can still pull of some great wins!

And props to Parting as well to acknowledge that Protoss is Overpowered, and at an advantage at every stage of the game. That shows class.

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Yeah, no s I did. When you say one race has all the cheese and you whine about how impossible it is to figure out what any of them are going to do, then if there’s a shred of reality to your whine, then no s Toss SHOULD dominate best of 1s, which is the ladder. Don’t tell me you’re too dense to get that.

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Hello I am a rational proton and I think mine drops r gey

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Wild for a Protoss to be calling something else gey.

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Accept what exactly?

The game is in maintenance mode.

This means that going forward we have what’s called the " Chess Board " and the sooner you people realize it the sooner you will start adapting your playstyle rather than worrying about some brain dead company that’s too busy with litigation between their investors and the state of California.

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No.

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Yes. 16 characters by the way reason was same us other 2 race exist

If Protoss “should” dominate the ladder, and “should” dominate the lower end pro scene, that would, by definition, mean Protoss is easier. You were actually “dense enough,” to think those things mean Terran is the easy one.

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Yeah, you told me to “buy a noose” when I crushed you yesterday.

Maybe you should get even halfway decent with your ridiculously easy race before you start to comment. Being 4100 as Protoss should an insult in and of itself.

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Lol it insult if you habe hight ambitions probably

If, since as a Protoss, you’re pathetic enough to say that anything the other two races has right now is “gey,” you have ambitions that are way too high for your intellect.

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