No. I haven’t forgotten. Hence why I wrote in my initial post “every single new ladder season”. Then you proceed to repeat my own words to me asking if I have forgotten about it. Bravo, I wonder if you’ll pass english class this year.
the only difference between cheese and hacking/cheating is that hacking/cheating is somewhat against the rules.
both are a crutch for bad players to get wins they dont deserve.
just double checking since you know, you felt the need to make a forum post about it… i guess we can’t all be geniuses like you, making captain obvious posts like it’s something new. so special.
Since a long ago, it was said that if you can’t handle early game stuff, you don’t deserve playing mid/lategame.
Yes, I don’t doubt that, many more casual players want the stress free RTS experience, the classic no rush 15, if you read comments from communities outside starcraft, you will notice a lot of comments about being destroyed fast with cannons or anything else. Many players expect some kind of pacific base building phase, then some skirmishes, and later some big fights, no, this is starcraft, the gameplay is fast, you will be trashed during the first minutes of the game. The average game lenght is 12 minutes, meaning after the first 4 minutes you will enter the dadangerous phase (with no rush).
I don’t mean stuff like “focus free” macro. I have no problem with one base all-ins altough I do have a problem dealing with them (would try fixing that when I come back to this game).
But when a probe starts creating builds at your own base and you lose because of it, I find extremely hard to take it seriously even when is a valid tactic. So much so that you still see pro matches when they legit did it and won against other pros.
Cheesing as a knowledge check for cheap low elo wins is fine, but when this stupid stuff is used even at higher elo and still netting results just mean that the game simply wants to be frustrating for the sake of being frustating.
LotV giving such huge early game boost didn’t help matters. Now cheese is not only a strong tactic but rather enforced at this point. I do believe one of the reasons they created shield battery to help protoss against cheese but guess what, they’re now used in cheese.
Yeah its true. But i guess in general its criticised how powerful cheeses are despite not having to do much for it. I have beaten 5500mmr Bane busts and lost to 3700mmr bane busts. There is really not that much difference between those 2 and its boring. Or better example is 12 Pool. Even lambo says every zerg should do 12 Pool vs protoss because it does more dmg to Your opponent than it does to You and thats why its not “cheese”.
But yeah in general the community should just accept that mmr doesnt matter that much if You got it by cheesing and it doesnt matter if someone Beat You by using this crap. I mean in a sense of yeah learn to Deal with it and respect it but dont get angry about it only because someone doesnt want to invest time or skill at all in this game. Winning or losing a BO1 doesnt say anything about Who is better in ladder.
But there is a difference, cheese at pro level is a risky strat, everybody knows the counters so the result is decided by players execution. And I don’t think it is enforced, it’s an option that players can choose or not.Cheese at ladder is good because of the bo1 games and because many people does not know the counters or don’t bother to try to defend properly. Yesterday I was watching Heromarine’s stream and he was bored and wanted to cheese every tvp game, he destroyed every P under 6,6k and said he was winning not becuse the strat was strong or him good but because the players were not trying to stop it, once he saw he was playing a high level P he said that he should be able to stop it, and he was right, the P stopped the cheese with minimal effort.
People need to learn the counters, once they do, cheesers will find out that cheesing is not that good, but as long as there is people dying to cheese, cheese will be on the menu.
It’s the nature of the game, with only a bunch of units there is only a few things you can do, you can’t create an elaborated cheese or it won’t be efficient, the strat must be fast and precise.
When he talked about it, I started 12 pooling and that’s true, it’s not really a cheese, you make just the right amount of units, you spend 200-250 minerals, the enemy with a standard scout can see you with enough time to react and hold, the problem comes from players who overreact or have bad micro/macro, I ended having 65-70% wr just because many players panicked, did wrong builds (Zealot not in time=getting the artosis pylon killed) or got hardcountered since they were trying to cannonrush me.
MMR importance depends on what do you want. Do you want to be a part of the competitive ladder and want to reach the highest amount of mmr?, then you do the best available strats, so if cheesing gives you some edge, you cheese when you need it, and if cheese is all you can do, then you cheese every game. If your objetive is playing standard, then you must learn different skills and will have to leave out the mmr that cheese can give you, but mmr won’t matter that much because you are playing the way you want, maybe you could be higher if you cheesed but that’s not your objective.
In my opinion the better player is not the one who always plays macro games, is the one who always play the way he wants and mixes cheeses/agressive openers and macro games in the same proportion, see koreans, they are known for being pretty cheesy, they know playing macro but if they can, they will cheese you, while the rest of the world is ‘‘reeeeeee,no cheeeese, you are a no skill player’’
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And I don’t think it is enforced, it’s an option that players can choose or not.
Enforced was the wrong word I used. The right would be incentivized. Cannon rush existed since the invention of the wheel and Blizz actually likes this thing, if they didn’t they would have shot down already.
In fact, lizz loves this cheese in particular so much so that they made a probe character on Heroes of the Storm which the entire concept is cannon rushing on a MOBA. They find it charming making everyone look like clowns in a match, so what can you do except accept it or leave it?
Thats the part that I can’t really grasp it:
People need to learn the counters, once they do, cheesers will find out that cheesing is not that good, but as long as there is people dying to cheese, cheese will be on the menu.
Basically, people always died to cheese since this game existence, so how it can be argued that it isn’t good?
I remember seeing Idra knowing full well he would get cheesed and still lost to it.
I think lizz should give a “screw cheese” patch a try to see if the cheese really alienates a possible playerbase or not. Imagine a patch with a slogan “Cannon rush is finally dead” and see if people would join this game or not without someone building things at your own base and call it fun.
Well problem about canon rush ok you deflect it try counter rush but you meet 2 base mass sb and a few units who can deflect your counter
See high level tournaments, see how many times you see cheeses,compared to the amount of standard games, cheeses are a rare sight.So we can deduce that the lower the level, the better the chances of the cheese will be.
Some players even knowing what’s happening, can die to it if they do not prepare well, the other day heromarine said that he never loses to cheeses because they caught him off guard, he said that he loses because he wasn’t trying hard, or because he messed up the defense, cheeses are not stopped by just knowing you are going to be cheesed, and I don’t know about htat Idra case, but I remember him losing to weird stuff because he didn’t know how to react, Idra was a really standard player, anything that made him adapt made him play bad, I always will remember him saying ‘‘This guy is so bad I don’t know I can do against him’’, many of his famous Idrarages came from him not adapting, he preferred whinning instead of changing his style.
See high level tournaments, see how many times you see cheeses,compared to the amount of standard games, cheeses are a rare sight.So we can deduce that the lower the level, the better the chances of the cheese will be.
Couldn’t it fall the idea of cheesing requires so much more micro from the defender than the attacker? In fact, just what you said by Heromarine could backup this:
he said that he loses because he wasn’t trying hard, or because he messed up the defense
If knowing the incoming strat is not enough of an advantage which the strong point of said strategy is to surprise enemies and getting them off guard, wouldn’t that be too powerful? Or better yet, if the strategy barely works on professionals, why not just take down a peg since it is just nerfing a bad strategy in the first place to not promote more fermented milk factorum?
Edit: I’m just trying to say that at this point, cheese probably created more problems than its worth.
yeah I lost two games in a row to bunker rushes right before season roll and I just stopped playing. It’s dumb that people just all in or cheese every game and if they dont do that then they just build a MASSIVE wall and turtle for like 20 minutes.
I have seen Your match history before You blocked me and You cannon Rush every Single game. The audacity to complain about cheesers…
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All the whine Tearans study the bunker rush from BW. And early GOM TvT, when it was even worse. This was back when you could go rax bunker before supply and just win the game.
WoL was mostly about 1 basing but why wait when you can deny your opponent and their expand. LotV is completely different game - you can greed and deny your opponent if you are protoss. And overall you are better off to be greedy because you cant be punished much. Zerg lives off 3 bases early on and would still get to survive later, Protoss too. Terran is the race that can lose hard from early 3 bases. But expanding overall became better than trying to punish greedy players which killed part of the game.
I only cheese the AI, because it’s the AI. Why take matches against the AI seriously? lol
That’s why when you hold a cheese, you don’t run across the map and try to get a free win. By time you get there your prospects for winning are smaller than you’d think. Especially vs Protoss, instead you macro like a God and make them look like a moron in the score screen when they see your 90+ workers and 1500 APM because you decided to hotkey all of them and hold down ‘return cargo’ whenever you weren’t doing something important.
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Cheese is part of the game, and can usually be easily defeated. Yeah it is def annoying, but if you kick there butt hard enough they may stop cheesing.
Haha all workers on one hotkey and hit return cargo that’s funny.
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weird that so many pro terrans do that, then. Rushing 3 CC
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