Widow Nerfs are not needed

No, that’s good news because there’s a pattern on the forums. When the bulk of the talk on the forums all goes the same way, the devs usually listen.

People QQ’d about roadhog, he got nerfed.
People QQ’d about hide-and-rez and mercy got reworked.
People complained (justifiably) about the moth meta, and mercy got nerfed.
People whined about Junkrat instead of gitting gud and he got gutted into a shadow of his former self.

Now it’s Widomaker’s turn.

Besides which, she is a total nightmare hero who has clearly decided games at the pro level multiple times to the point that the announcers were bringing it up on stream. And now that GOATS is finally dying/in the devs’ sights, that’s just going to bring us back to the snipers.

Additionally, now that Junkrat is no longer a pub-stomper (his win-rate below gold is way lower than it was before) the big problem heroes in the lower ranked games are the snipers.

We hate having them on our teams because they’re difficult to use which puts us a man down, and we hate having them on the enemy team because they’re the most popular smurfing/trolling/boosting choice.

On top of that, a lot of the people complaining about Widow right now are high-ranked because she’s carrying games in high ranks, and that’s not the OW design. It’s anti-pattern to the core game loop which states that every member of a team should contribute to a victory, which is not what is happening with the snipers deciding games on their own.

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It doesn’t really matter by who the threads are made really.

Every dps nerf thread is made by a support main or a low level player. That’s just like the rules of forums.

NYXL Saebyeolbe: “I play Widowmaker a lot these days, but even if I win by carrying with Widow it feels sad and bitter. The meta these days is so Widow-dominant, that as long as you overwhelm the other Widow player you win.”](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/8wanvg/nyxl_saebyeolbe_i_play_widowmaker_a_lot_these/)

Been going on a long time, not only casuals.

Almost a year old comment removed out of context. The original Tweet and context is now deleted, but Saebyeolbe admitted in interviews that it was specifically because he wasn’t good enough with Widowmaker that his team ended up losing their spot in the Grand Finals.

In another interview;

“Before the new meta, I was a Tracer player. I was used to the faster tempo and focusing on the same target as [NYXL tank] Mano, as part of Winston-Tracer. But then the meta changed. It was Pine who played more Widow, but when I did play, I didn’t perform well. I’m good at Widow now, but back then, I wasn’t at the level I am now.”

His reaction was that the pressure of playing Widow was extremely stressful and he was remarking on how easy it was back then to overwhelm her with good team coordination.

His more recent interviews alongside his teammates show that he actually MISSES Widowmaker, Tracer, and more mobile teamplay.

Since the end of season one, Overwatch ’s meta has undergone multiple shifts, mostly involving an HP-heavy tank-and-healer-based composition known as GOATS. The meta isn’t exactly beloved — JJonak and Saebyeolbe said GOATS is too similar from match to match, and they miss the days of high-flying, highlight-reel DPS plays—but NYXL is ready for it.

She already had two turns on the chopping block with devastating results in both the pro circuit and then the ladder respectively.

Stop pretending this is some sort of injustice, or that Widow was somehow immune to forum QQ-ing (because that’s exactly what got her nerfed in both of the above instances), and just admit you want her deleted already.

Assuming his comment was pure stress is you. He is saying the meta is Widow dominated in literally those words. He may miss that now, but it doesn’t change that it WAS dominated by her back then and even he complained about it.

Widow hasn’t changed much since then. PRO scene is still in GOATs. But pre-GOATs concerns about her are still relevant. Moreoever these things prove that her issues have beem complained about by people of every level for a long time, even if GOATs distracted from it.

Here is Jayne also discussing Widowmaker negatively.

I have. But it’s a completely different discussion and I didn’t want to inject it into this thread.

I’ve also stated that doing that wouldn’t be fair to widow mains. However, the things she does to my games also cannot be ignored. Not because I’m special or anything, but because if my main wasn’t protected then Widow shouldn’t be either. If I’m going to put up with getting my main wrecked in a way I don’t like, I shouldn’t just have to sit here and put up with heroes that I don’t like being left alone.

I’m biased. I freely admit it.

I also think Widowmaker is frustrating to play against, oppressive, and she makes the game not fun to play in her current state.

If you can address any of that without being condescending or insulting, I’ll gleefully listen. However, since it’s my opinion and overall game experience that I’m talking about…

…good luck.

I don’t like getting erased, instantly, from across the map. It’s not fun. It makes me feel powerless even when I’m doing everything right.

I don’t like getting teammates who cannot contribute to the game they’re currently in because they choose to play a hero with a learning curve so steep she is mathematically a detriment to her team until something as abstract as “player skill” catches up to her curve. Especially since the required mechanical aim to make her not a throw pick in my games will solidly place anyone with said skill above my skill bracket. THAT is not fair to me.

I don’t want to have to play “hide behind the box” just because there’s a widowmaker around when the hero I play just had that very capacity removed because people refused to ‘git gud’ and instead decided to QQ on the forums and say he was “frustrating”. This, in particular, makes me angry because it feels as though I’m being personally s**t on. So take your “just stand behind a barrier” remarks and shove them.

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I’m not assuming anything. The now-deleted interview said he blamed himself for NYXL not getting a Grand Finals seat, and that there’s literally a lot more stress than there was playing Tracer that he simply wasn’t comfortable with.

Going back on a previous comment to the point where you say you miss it now is quite literally the exact same thing as retracting the comment.

Also, you can see the most upvoted comments in that thread quite literally disagree with his statements. Jayne, while very analytical, dotes too much on his own hot take.

He’s respectable, but don’t take his word as law here.

Prefacing any comment with this sort of declaration kind of immediately implies the opposite.

Like, (and I fully recognize that this comment here is probably oozing with condescension), it’s not doing you any favors.

That’s not a valid reason to go witchhunting after a character for over 2 years worth, and contributing to the long list of complaints that literally got her nerfed. Twice.

And it’s actually quite upsetting – Widow mains have said nothing but “no one deserves to be in the gutter as long as Widow was” for over a year. No one should ever have to experience a playstyle that is synonymous with her character archetype and omnipresent in the genre being stripped away from her.

She finally gets thrown a bone, and take a step out of the gutter, and she gets lambasted constantly to the point where Widow mains jumped ship. I did, only to see that people kept attacking it, and have come around multiple times trying to stave off more nerfs.

Saying that “an eye for an eye, fair is fair” as if you can somehow attribute blame to Widow mains for the reason why Hog/D.Va/Mercy/whoever got nerfed, is absurd.

That’s the thing. You’re not doing everything right.

You are incorrectly assuming that you’re doing everything right, and that how you’re playing is how an FPS game plays. And this is (I can’t say it any other way, it’s going to sound condescending) for lack of a better term… wrong.

What you’re doing, is how a MOBA is played. Not an FPS. Even though Overwatch has MOBA inspired elements and has been directly compared to it many times – it’s not a MOBA. There is no 3-lane/jungle mutually contestable buff/debuff base assault gamemode.

Payload, TDM, CTF, King of the Hill, Objective point capture… these are literally FPS game modes. It’s an FPS, through and through, and the FPS PvP genre is literally all about navigating the map with the conscious awareness of potential sightlines. The other team is filled with your adversaries, but learning how to play an FPS has always been about traversing a map. Your job playing an FPS is knowing how to navigate a map better than the enemy team. “Map control” was the buzzword people used for decades, where map control is more important than aim, but aim is what people strive for.

You don’t learn how to control a map without ever having reverence and caution with powerful sightlines. Hanzo, Widow, and Pharah are the three launch heroes that enforce these sightlines, because without them you have a game that has more in common with WoW PvP than it does with an FPS – you get turtle-y bunker comps that occupy parts of maps that would otherwise never be viable options due to sightlines, that make playing the game arguably more fun for a brawling MOBA player, but an absolute drag for an FPS player.

I don’t know how many FPS games you’ve played, and I’m assuming it’s not many since you’ve laid your frustrations out on the table, but a thought experiment using CS:GO, if you will – de_dust2 on pistol round plays nothing like de_dust2 ten rounds in where both teams have money and can buy rifles and snipers.

So when you say something like;

You’re demanding that the game plays in pistol round, when all of the FPS players before you like the late-game rifle/sniper/smg on a budget meta.

All you’re doing then, by demanding nerfs from a hero that couldn’t be as close to the FPS genre formula as possible, is confirming that the game genre isn’t for you and instead of coming to terms with the genre, you’re demanding, whether you believe so or not, the genre conform to your preferred version of pistol round.

Look I’m sorry your hero got nerfed, but heroes don’t deserve nerfing due to some “greater good” and “health” of the game, or some sort of payback/retribution for receiving a sledgehammer.

Nerfs should be doled out because of a severe detriment to a gameplay loop… and even then it’d be better if everyone got buffed instead of a nerf.

And to pile on requests of nerf after nerf when a hero has both historically received many nerfs, and has had severe growing pains that it managed to outlive only to be subjected with more, that’s not cool. What are you achieving by that?

That doesn’t mean that the only made that comment because of stress. He stated he was stressed and that it was Widow dominated separate comments. Widow being overly dominating could easily cause someone stress if they aren’t as good as other Widows.

No. It isn’t. You can both have been unhappy with the balance then, and even more unhappy with the balance now. Many players miss those days but don’t want it to be exactly how it was before because they were not happy with the balance problems of that time period.

He clarified his comments in that same thread and expressed many of the same problems that people are stating now. These are not new complaints and they are not just the complaints of low elo people.

Beyond that I’m not taking his word as law. I’m not even saying she needs a nerf. I am saying she factually concerns many high caliber people and has for a long time.

These concerns are few and far between, and usually only come from the loudest influencers.

Calling it ‘many’ isn’t representative of the actual history and state of things. If we go back in time, we have some of the best pro players saying Widow was trash and worthless until Korea started experimenting during World Cup. We have 0% pickrates on the first rebalance of Overwatch in pro events.

We have pros that are premiere Widow players that go on long controversial VOD rants about how hitscan may need a rework in the future because of how out of place or outclassed they might be/become.

If I say “wow I really miss Dive, it sure beats the socks off of Bunker”, when Dive was a particularly upsetting time for me (I hated Dive and everything to do with it), just because I can still be unhappy with the balance back than and the balance now doesn’t mean that I would go so far out of my way to say that “wow I really miss Dive.”

I’d only ever think back of Dive fondly if I’ve reconciled my past hatred of it. To say that I miss it would damn well be recognition that my past comments about Dive were petty grievances, possibly made in error, compared to my current frustration with Bunker. And I can reasonably be assumed to have reneged and taken back my former hate of it.

No. That’s me trying to let you know that I’m not saying that I should be specifically listened to. I’m trying to avoid speaking from authority because I’m talking about my opinion and nothing more.

Sure it is. Being nerfed twice doesn’t actually mean anything. If it did, people would be tip-toeing around Brigitte players. Instead there are still front-page “nerf brig” threads.

The only thing that matters is the current state of the game. It’s why Junkrat got his core playstyle altered. It was frustrating people enough that they came to the forums to vent, and widespread enough that the devs took notice. He’s also been a pubstomper since release which didn’t help, and unfortunately the fix that finally seemed to work made him a lot less fun to play from a stylistic standpoint.

Even though I can aim at range again, I’m having less fun with my main because I don’t really enjoy fragging. I enjoy disrupting the enemy team and playing with physics. If it was only fragging I was after I’d either be playing widow, or I’d be playing CS:GO, COD, or Battlefield.

That’s funny. All I’ve ever gotten from you and yours was “git gud”.

Don’t try to paint yourself and your ilk as some kind of honorable, victimized mob because you’re not. You actually have some of the biggest egos in the game bar none.

Yeah well, it happens anyway. I want to enjoy Overwatch, and widowmaker prevents that. She is the most rage-inducing hero on the roster for me. I think that Ashe was far better designed, just in general. She has almost all of Widow’s strengths, and none of the frustration.

Now you’re putting words into my mouth. I never said it was widow mains that got anyone nerfed. Try again.

I said that nobody is protected. Anyone can be nerfed, and any nerf can be justified if it makes the overall game better.

Nerfing widomaker would qualify because she’s oppressive and frustrating. She causes more rage and tilting than she brings enjoyment because in order for 1 widomaker to have fun, at least 6 other people have to suffer her BS.

I stand behind cover, and a high-flying grapple-flung widowmaker takes my head off.

I did something wrong? Existing was “a mistake”?

I stand behind my rein’s shield, call out the widow flanking on high ground the moment I see her, and immediately die to a flick.

I did something wrong?

I get flanked by a widowmaker who’s been creeping up behind us as we group up for a push and get headshotted while standing behind my tank.

I did something wrong?

I peek a corner to try and find the sniper I know is out there somewhere and the widow hopped up on adrenaline (we’ve all been in the zone) insta-flicks my face off.

I did something wrong?

I simply use one of my abilities as intended to get to highground, only to get picked out of the air by a widomaker who had just relocated.

I did something wrong?

You are confusing me playing badly with the widowmaker playing well, which can happen at any time. And I’m not complaining about widows who play well. I get out-played all the time.

I’m complaining about how it feels to get outplayed by a Widowmaker. It feels bad compared to almost everyone else on the roster because of her OSKs.

Lots of them. I’m almost 40. I’ve been playing FPSes since the original Doom.

And you’re describing CS:GO.

This isn’t CS:GO. This is Overwatch, and one of the core premises of Overwatch is that is has MOBA elements. That means slower gameplay, character choices that matter, and teamwork. Widowmaker takes the teamwork element of the game, and largely removes it because of how powerful she is. How much risk she adds to just existing.

Um, yes they do. Why do you think they nerf heroes at all?

Uh, widowmaker has barely ever been touched compared to most other heroes. In any case she’s probably due for some developer love anyway.

Enabling myself to have more fun while playing Overwatch. I don’t like what Widowmaker does to the game in her current state. Especially when she’s on my team. Playing 5v6 just isn’t fun.

I’m in Gold/Silver and I trash on Widow using Zen’s secondary fire.

I think a lot of people are afraid of Widow because they’ve never played her. Once you play her, you’ll realize she has a lot of disadvantages. You’ll also realize the many ways that you can leverage to shut her down.

She is sink or float until higher levels where she becomes a monster. She simply isn’t terribly enjoyable to play against. Change something, nerf or no.

Towards you, I have no regret or remorse over the things I said.

You presented yourself as rude, that your opinion was worth more than mine, did not acknowledge any arguments, repeatedly demanded nerfs even while Widow had already been substantially nerfed once already, and outright spread misinformation (of which I don’t know if you intentionally lied about this info, but I know for a fact you spread it around) about certain aspects of Widow’s kit that I spent ages trying to correct to no avail… people STILL think Widow had a quickscope 3 years later and I’ve all but given up trying to explain to people what it actually was…

I will not apologize for anything I’ve said to you or anyone else who presented themselves as you did.

Though now that you’ve neutrally presented your opinion from your perspective instead of autonomously ignoring everyone and going on about Widow needing a nerf and setting leading questions and hypotheticals where there is no compromise or discussion, you’ll now have SOME respect from me.

But nothing else.

The most rage inducing hero from me is Winston, quickly followed by Rein and then Moira. But you don’t see me crusading on the forums on every single Winston, Rein, and Moira thread, nor creating NERF X HERO threads.

Hell, I was a Monkey main until Dive died, and now I’m a Rein main by sheer playtime. And I still hate the everliving daylights out of them.

The impulse to demand changes is one I never learned or grew up with because the games I played simply didn’t have it. It wasn’t until somwhere in 2010-2015 that games started getting frequent balance patches and even then it wasn’t even a consideration for FPS games.

I don’t and can’t understand why you’ve got that burning impulse. I never will.

Not my intention and I never did put words in your mouth. Just how I’ve interpreted your feelings of contempt towards Widow. Even if you don’t blame her, you certainly feel like she should get some sort of retributive nerf to make your current main’s situation hurt less.

That sort of thing I don’t and will never agree with.

You had ~2 seconds of reaction time from the plink of her grapple hook, map knowledge that a Widow might try to do an airshot in very specific locations, and some semblance of object permanence to generally know where the enemy Widow was and could be.

Yes, you did something wrong.

Barring some really weird sound glitches with the game’s sound mixing, or the odd Rein charge somehow proc-ing around corner, I don’t ever recognize a death of mine as “BS” the way I see and hear other players so quick to yell about.

I did not stutter…

So many players go on auto-pilot without thinking. Not saying you’re one of them since I don’t have VODs of yours to review, but there definitely was something you did wrong… existing is not the problem and frankly not within your control… but consciously choosing to be in a spot that you shouldn’t have been in if you had applied map knowledge to your situation IS something within your control.

In a situation where I’m behind cover, I’m almost never surprised by a Widow flanking and hitting me. Because I saw it coming, and know it’s along the lines of something I’d do.

And this gets into the weird abstract idea of game sense, skill, and getting “gud” small note here, I don’t think I’ve ever personally said that exact specific phrase to you (except in complete exasperation maybe once?) because I personally hate the phrase… so I don’t appreciate the accusation you’ve made there but I digress, where certain players just know by intuition, and other players just don’t have it…

You can’t control your Rein and you certainly can’t control the Widow’s flick, but you made the assumption that behind a barrier is somehow safe and chose not to act immediately upon sight. Strafe/crouch spam increases your survivability and it’s instant due to no move accel.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had to do this sort of dance before –https://gfycat.com/accuratepointlessdarwinsfox – but it was and is always available to you. And any time Widow doesn’t have a red X on her portrait on the scoreboard menu, you should at least be primed and ready to do that dance.

You can’t attribute that to Widow. Sneaking DPS flanks come in all varieties – Doomfist, Genji, Sombra, Reaper.

Hell, this even happens with Lucio and Wrecking Ball, and I’ve personally even done it with Winston.

Peeking with a character that has no defensive options is a risk. You made a risk you took the punishment. This absolutely IS your fault, and while I admit this one is a little bit frustrating to anyone on the receiving end, out of all of the examples you’ve given this one IS definitively your fault.

I have seen plenty of Widow complaints for a long time, mostly from GM players. They only died down because of GOATs. It has only been few and far between because of that meta period. There was a lot before that meta, and there has been a noticeable increase now.

He’s a dps player in a meta where that skillset isn’t valued. Ofc he misses it. It doesn’t mean that he has reneged on his past views concerning the balance of the time period.

Didn’t ask for either. Don’t want either. We’re not friends. We have no relationship outside of this forum, and we both want completely different, incompatible things. It’s not surprising that we don’t get along.

I’ve been playing Blizzard games religiously since Starcraft. Balance changes have been a think with them since forever.

I’m a forum-rat (not a reference to junkrat). I like talking about the games I play with other people interested in those games.

I like multiplayer games. That means balance.

I’m an amateur game designer, so balance is something I’m just concerned about naturally. There is a time and place for imbalance in game design, and there is both good and bad imbalance.

The imbalance that makes two heroes not the same is good.
The imbalance that makes Widowmaker garbage below gold is not.
The imbalance that makes Widowmaker oppressive when played well is not.

Incorrect. I’m simply done with considering anyone else’s feelings towards your main when making posts about the balance that I want to see.

Though, the Junkrat changes were definitely the catalyst.

2 seconds is not necessarily enough time to get behind cover.
If in that 2 seconds my team’s rein doesn’t deploy his barrier, it’s not my mistake.
If we have an Orisa, it’s not my mistake.

Neither do I.

It’s just Widowmaker. Even Doomfist isn’t as triggering as Widow.

None of them can insta-gib you. I’ve been flanked plenty. It’s not the flanking I have a problem with. If they can sneak up on me, they deserve to kill me. That’s not the issue.

It’s purely the insta-kill.

That is the risk, and I do accept the punishment. However, dying in this case still feels bad.

For example, if Widowmaker were a projectile sniper like in some other games, you would have the warning of a report before the projectile crossed the corner, and Widow wouldn’t have the advantage of being hitscan which means she would have to pre-fire to kill you for peeking. That would be less frustrating and would feel a lot more fair.

Or, if there were the only time she felt frustrating or oppressive, it wouldn’t be as bad. However, she’s always frustrating and always oppressive. And that’s not good.

Then there’s the problem of her difficulty curve to consider.

I’m going to make sure that I’m being absolutely clear here.

I do not think that Widowmaker is OP at my rank. She’s actually the exact opposite, and the only time she is OP at my rank is when she’s being played by a smurf, troll, or booster which is a completely different issue that has nothing to do with her being UP, OP, or anything else balance related.

I think she’s frustrating to play against. She makes the game less fun than it would otherwise be, and it’s completely her ability to insta-kill you from long distance.

Rein’s charge isn’t a problem (even if it’s a freaking tractor beam whenever I’m around).
Doomfist isn’t a problem (unless he’s being smurfed/trolled/boosting).
Roadhog was never a problem (even during hook 1.0/2.0).
Environment kills aren’t a problem (my position relative to that bottomless pit is all on me)

Widowmaker is a problem. Her design is old and outdated compared to the current direction of the game in general. Ashe should, honestly, have been a redesign of Widowmaker instead of an entirely new hero (she could have summoned reaper with her ultimate, or something).

Two-shot kills feels a lot more fair because of Overwatche’s rather slow paced combat, when you don’t have a windup to warn your target that you’re coming. Overwatch has MOBA influences, which means it’s supposed to be more tactical and strategic than the competition (whether or not it actually is can be debated elsewhere).

I feel that insta-kills like what Widowmaker brings to the table remove both tactics and strategy, which is poor design. She needs either clear warning, or two-shot kills. Both allow response and feel more fair.

Additionally, she needs her difficulty curve addressed. She should be viable in the lower ranks. She’s simply not a good hero down here right now. If Brig was “too easy”, then Widowmaker is the exact opposite and it’s not good for basically the same reason (just in reverse).

Wait, a person who mains a certain character wouldn’t like said character being nerfed? I have never seen this before!

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Sorry, your instakill hero on a primary gun is not balanced nor is it healthy for the game. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Well Brigitte got dumpster-tier’d by scrublords that just let her get close so you aren’t gonna get much sympathy from me.

The fact that Widow can one-shot most of the roster and most of them can’t do it back means that she must be balanced around that fact.

She shares the same HP pool as most DPS heroes and has mobility options to boot. That’s too much for a one-shot capable sniper.

Either nerf her HP, or get rid of her mobility. That’s my proposal.
(Don’t get me wrong, I’d argue the same thing for Hanzo)