There is no need to be mean here. They are just stating their opinion from their point of view. 
Hanzo is 100x worseâŚ
Complaining about Widow in the current state of the game, with God tier Hanzo in play, just demonstrates that you really know nothing about wtf youâre talking about. Thatâs all.
Stop thinking OWL games are what you experience. They arenât. Stop demanding nerfs because of them.
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If thatâs your opinion, fine.
But, think Iâm gonna listen to the pros who disagree with you on this one.
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Plz provide links to support this.
I watched Aero, the coach of fuel, go over their playoff matches, and when directly asked by chat if Widow needs a nerf or w/e he said âno sheâs fine, high skill cap hero.â or something to that effect. Thatâs after watching Pine pull God tier shots time after time on the very team he coaches. Pine time.
Hereâs the link:
Go toward the very end when he starts the Q and A. You will find his reply to Widow nerfs there.
Now please provide me with similar links/evidence to support your claim.
Another additional note is that Widow on LAN is not the same as Widow on ladder. OWL being on LAN is an indirect buff to Widow basically in and of itself.
Edit: Timestamp is 1:59:50. I had to walk through it to find it to confirm so Iâll spare you guys doing so.
Also I only provided this in response to the whole:
I recommend everyone watch, very educational. I agree with him on Brigitte when it comes to OWL level play, disagree with him on it outside of it.
I didnât say that âWidow needs a nerfâ. Never did. In fact, I said I donât want to nerf her. But, what I DID say is that she has currently seems to have no counters.
What I said was that Widow is generally accepted to âdecide most gamesâ. Thatâs something thatâs been repeated several times in OWL. If you want me to provide links as to who said what and when, sorryâmy memory isnât that good. Not a good excuse, I knowâŚbut I just canât do what you ask right now. If I hear/see it again, Iâll try to take notes.
But if youâre arguing with me on the basis of âthe pros said Widow needs a nerfâ, that isnât what I said.
However, I do feel that if the game has reached a point where Widow is (or becomes) the most dominant DPS with no feasible counters, then she might need looking at.
That being said, I respect that you can specifically point to a video to support your argument. I canât do that, yet. But I remember what Iâve heard and/or read.
What I was referring to, in that quote, is the fact that the pros seem to universally agree that Brigitte is fine, and a good addition to the roster, in contrast to what slayeradam said.
And for one final thing: Iâm not a âhimâ.
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Forgive me. Considering the context of the topic âWidow desperately needs a nerfâ and such, I had assumed you were referring to Widow. I shouldâve paused and took the time to read the context of your comment more. I did think that I might have misunderstood what it was directed to, thus my comment of me agreeing with Aero as far as Brigitte being balanced in OWL, but disagreeing with him when it comes to the ladder.
That also is what I used the âhimâ to refer to. I was referring to Aeroâs comments specifically, and not your own. Again, that is my bad, and many apologies for that.
Yes, Widow duels are very much deciding the majority of games in OWL right now. I can understand why commentators and the like would mention that. I also do think that it is a topic worthy of consideration so long as we understand it applies only to the highest of high levels. However, this is also largely a recent development, and Widow on LAN is different than Widow on ladder. I can (though I donât want to) also bring up a clip I believe of Babybei who commented on the differences between Ladder and LAN when it comes to Widow play.
There is an argument to be made for the domination of Widow in OWL at this time. Though, to be fair, this only became REALLY problematic after Genji and Tracer were phased out. Genji first, Tracer later. Before that, youâd have both of them keeping Widow contained. DPS on DPS type warfare.
What I donât appreciate is this sudden influx of people trying to convince others that whatâs seen in OWL is what they experience in ladder. That is not the case. The fact so many Widow nerf threads have popped up, who is very much a secondary DPS choice compared to Hanzo, just annoys me because of the blatant confirmation bias and the attribution of OWL type situations to what they experience in ladder game play.
Itâs annoyingly obvious at this point they are just strawmanning whatever they can to support a narrative that is mostly fueled by being killed by someone. The circumstances behind why they were killed can also be attributed to their own failure in game sense and positioning. They are attempting to excuse themselves of requiring that, instead blaming it on a OP hero, which is largely just tied directly to mechanical skill.
If you wish to excuse not having to aim in this game on the need for game sense and positioning, then donât try to remove every instance of where you are punished for poor game sense and positioning. Itâs getting annoying. (Iâm not saying you directly, just in general with how this forum has been on average lately).
Again, I do deeply apologize for failing to understand your position, and responding to you and what you said directly. Thatâs my bad 100%. However, I do appreciate that in failing to understand your position I made the post I did, linking the video I did, and I hope it is educational and hopefully eye opening for many who may read it but donât post here.
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Thanks for the understanding reply!
My viewpoint is that whatever is dominant at the pro level eventually becomes dominant on ladder, in GM and Master. Iâd also make the case that smurfs tend to practice meta characters a lot in low ranks, which is one of the reasons why Widows have been everywhere down here.
No proof for either of those claims, though. Just my personal experience.
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Just an idea, stay out of her line of sight or behind a barrier.
Oh for sure I agree with you 100%. Meta does trickle down to a degree, I remember a post by the user Jessicka that addressed Trickle Down Meta in a sense. It was the one Jeff responded to with the Blizzard stats for pick rates per tier, that closely correlated to what we saw on Overbuff.
Smurfs are a complication, an issue, and so on and so forth, but I really just write them off. Theyâre an anomaly that occurs from game to game that has a higher likelihood, statistically, of benefiting you than it does the opposing team. Just like throwers, etc.
We were all complaining about Tracers just 2 months ago. All she got was a pulse bomb nerf, that did nothing to change the unkillable one clipping dodging and weaving Tracers that everyone described. All that has stopped. Now itâs all these unpunishable Widows.
At SOME POINT there has to be some level of git gud tbh. Like come on. Are we saying all the Tracers just destroying teams suddenly picked up Widow? I wish. Iâm confident in my Tracer play, Iâm horrible with Widow. Flick vs Track aim, diff worlds.
People blow things so out of proportion around here itâs crazy.
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I wasnât, to be honest. Nor Genji. Iâve played both those charactersâI know how hard it is to actually do the things that make them seem unstoppable. And thus, I also know what those abilitiesâ weaknesses are. Like I said, I find âgit gudâ to be a valid argument when thereâs actually gud that can be git.
Thatâs the big question with Widow, though: is there one? If there is, nobodyâs found it yet.
widow already has a cooldown, your suggested change would make it even harder for new players, nty
you do realize that new players start the game right? your argument is not a good one for making widow harderâŚ
Ah bless for that. It was quite the popular trend of the time. I was just kind of surprised at how STARK it was. Like Tracer complaints just DISAPPEARED. Widow complaints then picked up huge. At the same time⌠Tracer has a higher pick rate than Brigitte in GM. She really, statistically, was never well represented outside of Masters+âŚ
Too much fervor. Fueled largely by, apparently, whatâs seen in OWL. Then a mad confirmation bias that kicks in and they start framing every experience they have in light of this unstoppable Widow or whatever they see in OWL.
As far as 99% of this playerbase is concerned. Yes.
At the absolute highest of levels? Hmm⌠Maybe? Ish? But weâre also looking at the highest level of mechanical/aim skill, on the hero that is most rewarded for dedication to that craft. That also is being supported by like Mercy, the entire team to create space and open up sight lines, etc, etc.
OWL is great for insight into what is possible when, essentially, ideally, all mistakes are removed. The ladder is full of mistakes by nature, it always will be, there is no changing that. In that environment, the Widow we experience is FAR DIFFERENT than the Widow we see in OWL. Especially considering that OWL is LAN. That, in and of itself, benefits Widow extremely. Far more than what we see in ladder. Similar to Sombras hack. On LAN itâs an entirely different thing, due to latencies, compromises accordingly, etc.
Widow is very much secondary to all kinds of other issues with this game. For their to be such a focus on her, right now, as opposed to all sorts of other things, just kind of shows the bandwagon nature of this forum, and how susceptible to confirmation bias many commentators here are.
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I wasnât. I started coming to this forum in SeasonâŚ3 I believe. In that time, Iâve seen the hate train roll around for:
Mei > Roadhog > Pharah > D.Va > Doomfist > Mercy > Genji > Moira > Junkrat > Tracer > Brigitte
The really scary thing is how easily people jump on the next wagon of the train without even remembering what happened before. For example, all of the people hating on Mercy who donât even remember that she was considered a troll pick when she was killable during Rez 1.0, or the people who hate Moira/Brigitte because theyâre âEasy Modeâ comared to Ana, without remembering all the hate Ana also got because her hitboxes dared to be slightly more lenient than a DPSâs.
My personal argument has only ever been about pro play. I donât consider Widow that big an issue on ladder. (Yet, anyway. I donât rule out that it could be possible.) I do think Widow demonstrates issues with âDamage Creepâ though. At almost every level of play, burst damage has become a hell of a lot more prominent than sustained damage. Even below Plat, Junk/Hanzo/Pharah are the most played DPS heroes.
I think looking at Widow, overall, may give insight on how to curb that trend.
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Same problem happens in TF2, the one long range class ruins the fun of everyone else, and he has unlocks to deal with his main rival.
Half the time shes scoped in and not moving fast. EZ shots can be made onto her
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Do you realise how hard it is to ACTUALLY hit 2+ LONG range shots as widow
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If a dive dps was at the same skill level as a widow and had decent game sense the widow would easily die
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Ahh yes⌠The good old days. Iâve dipped in and out of forums since launch. Oh boy itâs been a rideâŚ
What you describe though is very much the key point. Itâs not so much as recognizing what is oppressive to us when we play the heroes we want to play. Itâs about recognizing what it is that each hero can contribute, within realistic scenarios, and how that compares to others.
This game is, arguably, one of the most complex games to truly balance. There are so many factors, and the small size of teams (6v6) mixed with a first person shooter element (aim skill, etc) is quite crazy. That said, in light of all that craziness, I personally feel we must try to remain as objective, and unswayed by bias opinion, as possible.
I do like discussing the nuances of pro play and such. But that will never be remotely close to what I experience playing this game. I can discuss the subtleties of it all for a long time, thatâs interesting and sort of cathartic for me. As far as playing the game, there has to be a degree of attention given to the experience of playing the game for the majority.
OWL/GM is a great control. Itâs a great reference. It illustrates basically what gets the best results when all personal and (in the case of OWL) team based mistakes are removed. From that, we have to consider how the ladder, how the rest of the game, is behaving, and the overall health of it. Retention of players, reward for dedication, ability to encourage new players, etc.
There is many liabilities that one opens themselves up to when they only consider the game from a pro/OWL/GM POV. That is also a POV that has been consistently disagreed with. Blizzard has very much established that they look beyond that, that they wish to foster and encourage a casual base, and a celebration of concept/lore/etc, that you see in like the crowd at a given OWL match.
There is much to consider. Widow and her state of balance, imo, is very low on that list right now.
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