Why is everyone so upset over Moira?

General Discussion
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I keep seeing threads about how Moira is ruined or how garbage the Experimental Card is, and I just don’t understand why.
I’ve collected various quotes (tried to get the Original Posters of each thread).
These are all players with a negative opinion on Moira from the top threads of ALL CATEGORIES as of making this.

The Quotes

...Okay! With that out of the way... time to address all of these.

Moira’s Cleanse

Several people are talking about how Moira’s new Fade no longer has a point, as it cannot cleanse.

Moira’s new Fade does not have a cleanse effect, however it does grant immunity to all CC (excepting Graviton Surge or Gravitic Flux). **On top of becoming immune to CC for those 1 seconds, this includes the slow and stun effect from Freeze (Mei’s Primary AND Blizzard).

Another thing to note that nobody appears to be addressing or even thinking about is the OFFENSIVE potential for this new Fade, on top of its incredibly strong defensive1.

Offensive Value: (Example 1)

People don’t seem to think about how Moira’s change to Fade suddenly lets her use it offensively, in more ways than simply chasing after a low-HP target. So, why can she suddenly get this offensive value? Because everyone else can still act.

Let’s say I’m playing Reinhardt into a choke (left side mega to push through on Anubis A Offense). The opposing Ana has not yet used Biotic Grenade. I have Earthshatter. She knows this. So while Fade cannot be used to purge the anti if I were to go in, I can be made temporarily immune to it or the subsequent follow-up damage, and all other CC for an entire second. If she does this, I can knowingly drop my shield despite the enemy Ana having a sightline to me. I can start Earthshatter and become immune to Sleep Dart and Biotic Grenade (on top of all the incoming damage now that my shield is down). I basically get a free “Slam” off because I am immune.

Damage Orb Range & Value

There are a lot of people that believe that Moira’s Biotic Orb for Damage is now useless because of how accurate it is to stick, or how low its AoE range is. There is a lot of misunderstanding regarding the latter.

Let me first and foremost say that I believe the “stick” range should probably be buffed, but I understand why it isn’t- because landing Biotic Orb on a Tank grants MORE potential value than a squishy Support or DPS. To explain this, we’ll need to get into the specifics for how it works; here are the current changes on Experimental.
Biotic - Orb [+] Flight speed changed to 25m/s from 20m/s.
[+] Maximum damage increased to 720 from 200.
[+] Now deals 60dps to all targets until primary target takes 120 damage from Biotic Orb.
[+] Now sticks to targets on impact with a character hitbox (includes deployables such as Symmetra and Torbjorn’s turrets, B.O.B. and player-characters).
[-] Despawns if the attached target dies.
[-] Despawns if contacting a shield while in flight.
[-] Despawns if contacting two surfaces when bouncing, or when striking any surface after the 1st bounce.
While I cannot measure the lenience for attaching to a target, I have measured the AoE around that attached target as it deals damage. I used Reinhardt’s Rocket Hammer to determine that it has the exact same reach. Therefore Biotic Orbin this new form has a 5m radius and 10m diameter for the sphere effect (as it also strikes enemies above and/or below). As I have written, the Orb does 60dps to all targets within its reach for a maximum of 120 damage to a team. This is a significant increase from the old capped damage of 200 (split among 6 people) for a measly 33.4 damage per-person. It is this specific change, alongside the 1st negative trait (marked by [-]) that explains why its value is best achieved on Tanks as they are the most likely to survive it while radiating the full damage to their entire team who more-than-likely are nearby.

Remember that Biotic Orb ignores armor, and while it may be easily healed through- it gives Moira 5.04% ult charge per target for a maximum of 30.25% ult charge per Orb. This is a significant increase as opposed to her old maximum of 8.4% ult charge.

Biotic Orb (Live) Performance
# of Targets Damage to Target Total Damage Total Ult-Charge
1 200 200 8.4%
2 100 200 8.4%
3 66.7 200 8.4%
4 50 200 8.4%
5 40 200 8.4%
6 33.4 200 8.4%



Biotic Orb (Experimental) Performance
# of Targets Damage to Target Total Damage Total Ult-Charge
1 120 120 5.04%
2 120 240 10.08%
3 120 360 15.13%
4 120 480 20.17%
5 120 600 25.21%
6 120 720 30.25%

Do I think Moira (in the Experimental Card) needs buffs?

  • No. I don't. I think the example of "I got Charged by a Reinhardt out of Graviton Surge after using Fade" is counterplay, and good at that. Very similar to Reinhardt using Charge on a Zenyatta using Transcendence out of Grav.
  • I think Moira now having less of a blatant impact at lower elos, while having an increased impact at higher elos due to no longer possessing a permanently bouncing Biotic Orb is a healthy change.
  • I think Moira now having an Invulnerability effect on Fade is a healthy thing, as it will reward smart Moira play. Weighing the odds of whether to use it Defensively or Offensively, or in what situations to use it or not to at all. To pick who lives and who dies. All of these increase her skill ceiling, and I like that a lot.

Closing Thoughts

I think that Biotic Orb could be buffed in a few ways with this change, but that they should be tested in further Experimental Cards rather than just being outright pushed to Live.

The examples of these are:

  • Increasing the lenience for attaching to someone.
  • Increasing the damage-per-tick so that attaching to someone who immediately dies isn't a complete waste.
  • Allowing it to go through shields for less overall damage.
  • Allowing it to stick to shields and purged by dropping/destroying it (akin to how Dynamite and Freeze work on barriers).
Having said that, I do not believe any of these buffs to be *necessary* on top of what she already received with the Experimental Card.

Feedback

I’d like to humbly request that anyone who read this thread feel free to respond and leave constructive feedback. “Troll” replies will be ignored.

  • Do you have something to say about the formatting?
  • What do you think of what I said, did you understand it?
  • Do you think that Moira should go in a different direction?
  • Do you have thoughts on the Moira changes that differ from my own and why do you think that?
  • Do you think I should add videos of me testing various things, if so, what would you like to see me test?

EDIT: MOIRA’S FADE DOES NOT CLEANSE.
Perhaps it was a bug or simply an error on our part for when friends and I tested this, but Fade does not cleanse any negative effects EXCEPT for continuous CC like Charge and/or Blizzard/Mei’s Primary.

VIDEO: Biotic Orb range

https://youtu.be/D_X43zroBrY

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Yeah I notice when i throw new orb into a grav or a bunch of grouped up enemies I get ult pretty much instantly lol. The new orb is actually pretty insane when you land it a bunch of times.

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You wrote quite a few words. I can explain the issues more concisely.

They’re nerfing a middle of the road hero not because she is imbalanced, but at the behest of a select group of people with a direct line to the developers. This is emblematic of a recent change in design philosophy that takes potency, identity and agency away from tank and support heroes.

It’s undermining the faith the people who play those heroes have in blizzard. Kicking a man while he’s down, so to speak.

If you have any further questions I’ll be happy to answer them.

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I was Moira main and I am not upset at all. I am one of those, who use her mainly for healing and hate to get all the hate for Moiras, who primary dps with her. It´s annoying to get yelled at everytime someone notice, that I am just regaining my resources. Anyway, this changes are forcing players to primary focus on healing orb. I like the fade thing and I also have no problem with aim grasp thing. The only thing I have problem with is this weird bug (or whatever it is) - When I throw dmg orb directly to the person with no shield or bubble - sometimes the orb attaches to the person, other times, it doesn´t attach and just dissappeares.

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It’s quite easy to explain … you do not need that wall of text: Her orb got a situational buff for some fringe scenarios in exchange for a bunch of nerfs. Those moiras that actually mainly heal their team only got nerfs.

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You have no idea. This took several hours. You’ve no idea how much formatting went into this. Never again.

And this is where we fall apart. I’d like to think you read the entire thing, but at best you skimmed it.

Much of the community sees these changes as an overall nerf to Moira.
I don’t. And I’m confused why anyone does. That’s the purpose of the thread. That’s why I quoted people and directly went into why I agree/disagree.

I certainly understand the frustration in this, but I feel as though this could’ve also just been done for the sake of making Moira better and more complex- which, it does in literally every way from what I’ve seen.

Primary? Not nerfed.
Healing Biotic Orb? Not nerfed.
Ultimate? Not nerfed.

Fade? Buffed heavily, minor compensatory nerf.
Damaging Biotic Orb? Buffed heavily, compensatory nerfs. Might need adjustment. I actually go into how I think it could be changed towards the bottom.

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I really don’t like the idea of the damage orb being useful only for gaining ult charge. You could actually use the damage orb to kill people. This won’t hit anyone who would take meaningful damage from it. It is too slow to use on anyone but a tank, and a non barrier tank at that.

Also I think you are glossing over the nerf to the primary, which will damage the reliability of it even in high rank and ruins her as a Genji counter.

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Um guys, The worst nerf was to her Fade Cooldown. This is a direct hard nerf to her survival rate and by far the worst nerf out of all the changes.

She will die more, which means an overall nerf to her healing and damage. This is HUGE.

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Hope that gets resolved soon! I feel like it could be made a bit more lenient (I have a section dedicated towards this), but I fear for how strong Biotic Orb can be now.

Could you explain the “bunch of nerfs” comment? I keep seeing stuff like this, but nobody ever goes into detail.
The “wall of text” is highly formatted and separated so as to be easy to read and sort through, including two examples, explanations of uncommon terminology with examples, divided sections, and two tables for the more maths-oriented population. It is there to explain my view on the changes which is that while Orb may be too strict now (again, I cover this), I see everything as an overall buff.

Simply saying “Its a nerf!” without an explanation does not make things into a nerf. Explain your side, please.

Bioitic Orb is used for only a few things, each relatively niche:

  1. Throwing it into a corridor or side-room to check for flankers.
  2. Throwing it into a corridor or side-room to try to finish off someone as they escape.
  3. Throwing it into the enemy team to try to finish off someone weak (behind barriers which can already block damage orb, as I often do) or to get a small amount of ult charge.

1 & 2 were removed, yes. But I see that as a healthy change because it could often lead to extremely frustrating kills wherein the victim was hidden / safe entirely, in that they were out of Line of Sight or behind cover- sometimes even several layers of cover. But because of Biotic’s bouncing nature, it could kill them regardless.

Again, I do not see how. Are you completely ignoring the Fade changes when you say this? Are you ignoring the tables I made to show the ult generation buff?
“Only” got nerfs is just plain false.

That’s fair! I get that, but we’ve gotta keep in mind the fact that you could be “safe” and the only reason you’d die would be because Damage Orb would remain bouncing around for seven seconds with a 4m radius, that’s an 8m sphere of death for anyone who’s returning to their team from a flank (Genji/Tracer/Doom for example).

They buffed the speed. Are you suggesting they buff it even further? Are you suggesting they increase the leniency for which Biotic Orb can attach to someone? Are you suggesting that it should stick to shields, or go through them?

You state there’s a problem with it but do not say how you’d solve it. I do.

I’m actually not sure on this.
You’ve an open profile but you’ve not placed this season (or at least its not showing up). According to Overbuff which is unreliable at best you’re 2,400ish.

Ana and Baptiste would not be META in Masters/GM if people struggled so much with aim. I don’t think she’s ruined as a Genji counter at all, as I said- people in Grandmaster can aim pretty well to stay there consistently.
However, I do think her ability to fight off flankers is reduced in lower ranks because statistically, they have lower accuracy than we do.

I’m actually okay with that because I think just picking a hero like Moira shouldn’t be able to mindlessly miss a Genji/Tracer and kill them.
Yes, this is a hyperbole.

Source: I’m a high-masters / low-GM player.

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Yeah, because Zen havent had that problem since launch

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Do you not think that this is okay in return for her ability to prevent every CC effect in the game (excluding Gravitic Flux and Graviton Surge I think)?

Do you not think that good Moira players will adapt better cooldown management and positioning due to the cooldown nerf? If they do, is that not a good thing?

Good Zenyattas will kill whatever dares 1v1 them, unless they’re caught off-guard.
Likewise, Moira’s just need to not waste Fade and they’ll probably be fine- at least in my opinion.

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I would rather keep the existing mechanics of the secondary. I don’t know why everyone hates it. I almost never get killed by it! Even as a flanker, it’s pretty trivial to avoid, any healing ruins it, Genji can very usefully deflect it when used stupidly, and when it does kill you, you were usually a hair away from death anyway.

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They EXPLICITLY stated they removed the previously testing cleansing effects I’m so sick of y’all.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/603098893932298240/745782230059843675/unknown.png

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I would much rather keep old fade over new fade, any day.

She WILL heal more and do more damage with live fade than how it is on experimental, there’s no doubt. The new fade is, mathematically, a hard nerf. She will be giving up a whole lot of numbers for the occasional clutch save that also happens to put her out of position to actually use. Everything about the new fade is designed to get her killed more, thus doing less healing and damage.

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Maybe the cleanse is still in purely as a bug?

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Most likely considering the devs can’t even get their patch notes right.
Took them over a year to give us the correct damage numbers on Sym M1.

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I can’t speak for burn and freeze, but Exp-Fade does not remove Ana’s purple debuff. I just made an Experimental custom game to test this out: me and five AI Hogs versus six AI Anas. Fade did not remove antinade.

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Issenfer, you are typing replies like you have actually played her.

I have played 5 matches on the experimental card, I play Moira at 3600. So I should at least have some knowledge of how to use the new abilities.

The DPS orb has to hit directly, which means that sometimes the orb passes people as the middle has to hit. So it has this weird way of the edges clipping through people.

I am averaging about a 25% hit rate, I average 60-70% with Hog hooks. For the 120 damage it does it’s never worth using it, ever.

Not once in the 5 games have I clutched using the fade ability. It’s a little bit like Baptise’s ability, you have to pre-empt the action, as there is a cast time. But Bap’s ability lasts 5 times longer than Moira’s, plus its very visible.

What you have written above is a metaphorical best situation, that may happen once in 50 games. In every day Overwatch it isn’t usable. I would love to see a top 500 use it multiple times in a game to it’s full potential because I don’t see it’s use.

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Because Blizzard keeps nerfing healers

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Because she’s less fun to play and play against, imo. Damage orb is much more niche but when it does work, it’s OP. Making her orb gameplay less dynamic because there’s less decision making. It also has less counterplay now for the opponent. Old orb you could just walk around.

Her primary fire is weaker without any reward for it’s increased difficulty. Who wants to aim more without being rewarded for it? Her dps was the lowest in the game.

And her fade buff is always gonna do too much or too little. Making it frustrating to play and play against.

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