Did you actually read the other posts. I already awnsered this.
Hiding behind a 2000HP shield is not “Hide n Res”… Getting bubbled is not “Hide n Res”.
Mercy can either rely on her team, take advantage of her mobility, strategically withdraw from the fight, dodge enemy attacks or simply just take advantage of BHop. Hiding is not neccessary at all.
Hiding counters itself. Also, this is the enemy team’s incompetence. Assuming that the enemy Mercy is hiding, you should not be ulting in a 6v5 unless to counter ult.
It really isn’t rewarding other than the fact that it artificially inflates your SR but that was a different issue, not relating to mass Res design but rather the SR system. If you want a more detailed explanation, I’d recommend reading this thread:
Specifically, the third column.
You don’t need to do that. I was messing with you. I know it is practically impossible to prove your assertion. I was just hoping that you’d agree that it is impossible to prove. Also, you don’t need trust level 3 to post YT links, Blizzard links and Reddit links.
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Emp can be countered by seperating trans by anti nade, mass rez has little counter if she is ulting behind her teammate which other ults can be countered if they ult behind
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If that is an issue, wouldn’t LoS fixes fix that? Assuming that you can’t Res behind barriers? Though, I will admit, something like that could likely throw Mercy in an incredibly underpowered state. I just personally think issues like these are not that pressing since Resurrect doesn’t function like other ultimates. Unlike other ultimates, that enhance the fight, all Res does is reset it. It doesn’t give you any real advantages unless you rely on the enemy team’s incompetence and most of the time, the opposing team is the one with the advantages.
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If Widowmaker is tunnel-visioning, Winston or D.Va can pounce her (an easy move) and have her almost dead before she can unscope.
If you don’t watch your six as any squishy hero, Reaper can two-tap you.
If you step in a Junkrat trap on a mine, he can delete you from anywhere on the map with a reactive right click.
If you don’t think about the fact that you’re fighting Lucio with your back to a drop-off, he can casually boop you to your immediate death.
If you’ve wandered into the open, Soldier can literally aimbot you into oblivion.
Low-skill abilities punish people for making pretty dumb mistakes. Failing to account for the hero who can revive her team is a mistake. Just like if Mercy fails to track ults, you can re-wipe all six of them with a single ult of your own as they stand there frozen.
I don’t expect mass rez to come back, because the devs have said that they put that notion to rest. I accept that they evaluated the game and decided that they were unhappy with Mercy’s kit/playstyle, and I don’t expect we’ll ever go back to what was.
But the notion that making impact is always, or should always be mechanically difficult in this game just doesn’t match with how the game has always worked. The mind games of knowing who has what abilities and making it difficult for them to foil you with them is a huge element of playing well. Mercy does not have to become artificially hard to use in order to be allowed to be allowed to do things.
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I’m sorry but this is entirely false. After the Rez your team is at full hp and everybody’s present. While the enemy will defenately have casualties. Or at least their heroes will be damaged.
I am pretty open to Mass Rez coming back with some tweaks. Really, the one change they implemented before the rework that started all the complaints was the invulnerability. That reduced a lot of the “risk” that people say that an ult needs. But at the same time, before they implemented that buff, using Mass Rez was essentially a death sentence because the Mercy would die almost immediately after pulling off the rez and the enemy team would be at an advantage because it’s a 5v6.
The changes I would want for Mass Rez is LoS checks, similar to LoS checks for any other AoE healing (like Lucio’s aura, Brigitte’s Inspire, etc.) and instead of invuln, give her damage resistance so that she has some chance of surviving her own ult. If that isn’t enough counterplay, then we can add a short cast time. I was thinking it could initially be 0.8s, but we can try tweaking it from there.
But as it stands, there is counterplay to a Mass Rez. Hammond and Torb’s ults would both discourage her from rezzing her team. Self Destruct, Barrage, and Rip-Tire would also work since it would just cause another team wipe. You don’t even need your entire team to find the Mercy. Just sending a Genji after her would help rout her out.
I never had an issue with Mass Rez, on either end. I had fun playing as Mercy during those days and I had no problems playing against a 5-man either. With Valk Mercy, I could still play around it on both sides, but this healing nerf was the nail in the coffin. Plus, the rework in itself goes against the core of her kit (consistent, single-target healing and high mobility).
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Apologies. Totally forgot about tempo ressing. That being said, my main focus was “Hide n Ressing”.
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If if if if
If reaper gets behind you you deserve to die, he’s noisy as heck
Junk rat needs to position his traps right or else no competent person will step on them
If you tand near the ledge knowing there Is an enemy Lúcio you deserve death.
All these actions take some skill to pull off and it also takes skill to survive them. Rez is just pressing q.
Nothing screams unsurpassable skill like sniping in a game that’s literally all hallways.
Except, you really didn’t. You wanted ultimates that got immediate value with a simple Q press, the same immediate value that Rez got with her Q press.
EMP, Blizzard, Molten Core, Transcendence, Rally, Minefield and a couple others all require a similar thought process; be in or near the middle of the enemy or allied team and press Q for an instant advantage.
EMP: Go in, press Q, instant value
Blizzard: Throw it anywhere and the enemy can no longer have that spot of the map, instant value
Molten Core (new): Throw it into the enemy or onto the point and they can no longer survive on that spot; instant value
Transcendance: Use in the middle of team and now it’s much harder to kill them; instant value
Rally: Use in the middle of the team and now it’s much harder to kill them; instant value
Minefield: Use in the middle of the enemy or on the point and they lose that space: Instant Value
Mass Rez: Press Q in the middle of your dead team and potentially the live enemy team: instant value
All you’ve said is some mumbling about how the team may have to follow up, but once Mercy revives her team they still have to follow up to win.
EMP countered by Seperating doesn’t work if they don’t expect the Sombra to come in. We know by know more or less when Zarya has Graviton, she plays differently. So does Tracer, for that matter. Sombra plays relatively the same.
Trans countered by Anti-nade requires a specific hero out of 28 or 29. What do you do without Anti-Nade? Burst damage, but what if you don’t have a Junkrat or a Hanzo or a Pharah or something? What if you only have Soldier and Genji?
Mass Rez was countered by ult economy; even if she was standing behind her team and reviving two people that died out of position, which is an appropriate use of Rez, High Noon, Death Blossom, Rip-Tire, D.Va Bomb, Tac Visor, Dragonstrike, Graviton, Molten Core, Blizard, Configuration: Tank, Earthshatter, and a few other ults that I forgot the names to right now can all kill those people before they get back to safety. You either use the “skill” that net you the teamwipe to begin with to kill Mercy before she ults, or you use the ultimates left over (since your “skill” killed the enemy, no ults should have been used) to kill the rez’d heroes. It’s not countered like most other ultimates, but it was still countered.
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Hiding was required because some ult can’t be countered if she get in their range so if she got caught by grav she will be dead
So what’s the solution? Keep playing hide and seek with mercy? Someone has to found mercy which will be 5vs5 it also will put enemy in huge disvantage because they will not be able to ult while mercy is around while mercy teammate can waste any ult because other team has no mercy to undo
I wasn’t referring to SR, mercy required to stay alive while teammate are dead which give some mercy players fear to not participate in the battle to not get killed with teammate, hiding behind shield wasn’t effective like hiding behind wall because if anything happened to rein mercy will get killed first.
If you manage to kill 3-4 members of the enemy team without expending an offensive ult then you just caused the enemy team to burn their mercy Rez and your team is now capable of running in with offensive ults without having to worry about have their kills undone.
If you look at it narrowly then ya a Mercy just reversed your killfeed. But if you look at objectively then you just opened the door to victory by having the mercy burn her mass rez.
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All these ults require additional actions and have counterplay. Rez does not. Simple as that.
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“Darn, I wish we had killed that Rein before he Shattered and wasted our push.”
“Auuhghhhh we used two ults to get the point but the Reaper just dropped down and killed 4 of us lsdklskfj”
“We would’ve had that point if the D.Va didn’t Self Destruct.”
“slkdjfl;wiejrlkwejrl-ing Junkrat tire! We HAD that point!”
“I can’t believe Zenyatta can just negate my Dragonblade, come the f on”
How are these any different from what would happen if a Mercy managed to get off a large rez?
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Because just like card games and other games, casual/oldschool players are so thirsty for old broken mechanics. Doesn’t matter if you “balance” it. The concept of winning teamfights, just to be robbed of it potentially is not immersive. Symmetra’s teleport was vulnerable, mercy is situational/vulnerable, but they’re both horrible skills that should not be in the game. Get over it.
Even if balanced, lets say she pops off 3-4 people who have ults saved and you lose a team fight that you won by out-skilling or playing an opponent to nano-blade or something dumb. No thanks.
First of all of your gonna be rude please leave my thread.
Secondly these ults have counter play and require skill from the user.
Rez does. Take your own advice
What additional Action does Molten Core have that Rez does not? What action does Blizzard have that Rez does not? Minefield? Trans? Rally?
Yes, your team needs to follow up on your ultimates. However, that includes Mass Rez. If your team doesn’t follow up on your Mass Rez, then they’re just feeding ult charge to the enemy.
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Like I’ve said, in situations like that, hiding is still not neccessary.
Roll the 6v5 because… it is a 6v5 and then when the Mercy resses, throw in some resources and wipe again. Your team has the biggest advantage after all because the Mercy hide. Also, if you want to prevent a Res, how about staggering deaths? That should work effectively. After all, this fight with the Mercy hiding is basically yours. You can control the outcome however much as you want unless you’re bad.
Again, hiding counters itself.
Click me for more detail!
Copy and paste! Moving onto *“Hide and rez”* …“We think it’s wrong to tell a main-healing character to go off and hide somewhere and stop healing for some period of time.”
But it is fine for a main-damage character to go off and hide somewhere and stop dealing damage for some period of time, like many heroes currently do in preparation for an ultimate?
In actuality, you are right; just not for the reason you think you are. You are correct because hiding was maladaptive for the team’s chance of victory, and therefore was a bad way to play her. Allow me to explain this in an even more elaborate manner than my past few megaposts.
The success of a mass-Resurrection (4+ revived players) depended upon several factors:
- The Mercy’s ability to survive and execute the ability in the first place (the obvious one).
- The number of players alive on each team after the Resurrection.
- The number of available ultimates held by each team after the Resurrection (but primarily the enemy team).
- The shock value of Resurrect against the enemy (by far the most important factor for the post-rez fight).
The last factor is more important than the other two post-rez factors because it determines what other factors need to advantage the Mercy in order to have a good chance at a successful Resurrection. As the enemy team is given time to reorganize and fire their first attacks at the newly Resurrected team, they would already have a positioning advantage and the first shot… that is, if the team was expecting the Resurrection.
If the enemy team is expecting the Resurrection, they will have the post-rez advantages of the first shot and additional positioning time. Of course, this is a very bad situation to be in for the newly revived team, requiring some very strong advantages of their own to compensate and have a chance at winning the fight. In this case, they would need both the numbers advantage and the ultimate ability advantage.
If the enemy team isn’t expecting the Resurrection, then the Mercy could probably get by with either the numbers advantage or the ultimate advantage and still have a chance at winning, as the enemy team might not capitalize on their positioning and first shot opportunities as well as they should due to the shock value of Resurrect.
How does “Hide and rez” fit into all of this, you might ask? Hiding before the fight removes the possibility of having enough of those advantages against the enemy team in the post-rez fight, and therefore any chance of a victorious post-rez fight against any team of similar skill.
Hiding leaves the initial fight to a 5v6, the missing hero on the Mercy’s team being the main healer and primary source of sustain. Obviously, this is a huge advantage for the team of 6 in the first fight, allowing them to steamroll over Mercy’s team with likely zero casualties, and ultimate expenditures used only to counter any of the opposition’s ultimates. On top of this, the team of 6 also now collectively has 2000-3000 more ultimate charge from killing 5 players in addition to any healing dealt over the duration of that fight. Thus, it hands the ultimate ability advantage to the team opposing the Mercy.
The opposing team, assuming they are paying even the slightest attention to what is happening around them, would notice that the enemy is crumbling very easily for a supposed 6v6, raising suspicions as to whether or not the fight really is a 6v6, quickly leading to the realization that the enemy Mercy is missing from the fight. From this, only one conclusion could logically be drawn; she’s waiting to use Resurrect. There goes the ultimate’s shock value.
At this point, even if the team of 6 somehow managed to sustain 2 casualties in the initial fight, it won’t matter. If both teams entered the fight with the same number of ultimates, the team that does not have the hiding Mercy has at least two more ultimates than the other team (2000+ ultimate charge, Mercy’s team used Resurrect). One or two offensive ultimates is the absolute maximum a team needs to wipe a freshly-revived team when they are expecting the Resurrection, resulting in the revived team staring down the barrel of a gun they have no chance of avoiding.
In contrast, a Mercy who stays with her team keeps the fight at a 6v6, granting her team more sustain and forcing the enemy to expend ultimates to overpower them. Once the ultimates started firing, the mercy would distance themselves from the fight, evade, or take cover, laying down pistol fire or amplifying damage rather than attempting to heal those for whom healing would be useless. As a result, the enemy was less likely to realize that Mercy has Resurrect (the enemy was comparatively difficult to kill, removing the prompt to think about why they were crumbling easily in the first place), Mercy’s team was more likely to pick off a few enemies, and Mercy has successfully baited more ultimates from the enemy team. As a result, her team has more advantages and fewer disadvantages in the post-rez fight.
The only cost to staying with the team was an increased chance of being picked off before being able to revive the team, which just follows the same risk choice explained in the Resurrect section; if taking more controllable risks now helps to mitigate the high risk later, then taking those smaller risks now is safer than not in the long run.
Consequently, reviving a team after hiding typically resulted in a second wipe, while staying with the team until it was unsafe to do so was more likely to yield favorable results. That is why it was “wrong to tell a main-healing character to go off and hide somewhere” . It was a bad tactic, as it usually backfired.
Rather than letting the issue resolve itself by fixing the SR exploit that ultimately led to the tactic’s rise in the first place, the developers decided to remove Resurrect as an ultimate entirely. They changed the thing that wasn’t the problem, and ended up pissing off the playerbase.
Sound familiar?
Anyway, I’ve used this example many times before, but removing Resurrect as an ultimate because some players abandoned their team leading to a second wipe is equivalent to removing Rocket Barrage as an ultimate because Pharah players too often blew themselves up with it. There’s no need to intervene; the tactic will die out on its own, so long as the ranking system isn’t feeding it.
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I told you it would be pointless to argue, they don’t want their mind changed.
If someone can’t see Mass Rez is objectively OP, then there’s just no point in discussing further.