What really was wrong with mass Resurrect?

[HintOfMalice-2431]

If you stopped her the first time she flew in - the time in which, out of all of her attempts, would be the one time she might have the element of surprise - then it isn’t hard to hit her again with another form of CC. By that time, it’s over for the Mercy.

This is unreliable. With the speed of GA, and whatever height advantage she may have Mercy doesn’t always die that easily. Even on top tier games, Mercy still got rez off often. Sure, maybe not as many 5 man rezzes, but 3-4 wasn’t uncommon.

Not to mention the fact that in some spots she has the liberty of being able to Rez from the safety of behind a wall, or underground.

Why does it take more ultimates to kill a team that is easier to kill?

Because Mercy Qed all over the first 1-2 ult(s).

You run the risk of losing anyway. That’s literally a fundamental part of a teamfight.

If you Ult combo to kill 5 people, and then de-mech Dva, it’s a 1v6/5. There is no real risk of losing that fight. Sure, because this is people we’re talking about, you can’t rule anything out. 4 of them could fall off the map and Dva could kill the last one. But I mean, come on. As I’ve said, I’m discussing based on practical application. Not next to impossible hypothetical situations that technically could happen.

That’s… literally my point. I’ve seen Ana’s get this Biotic Grenade off, and I’ve done it a few times myself. Its is a perfect way to counter Resurrect.

Ressurect still did its job. Ressurect still brought 5 people back. The “sitting ducks” as you call them could have punished Ana for being out of position. And, again, you can’t rely on an Ana to hit a nade during that split second window. If the Rein were to Shield jump backwards, he’d block it. Now, most Reins aren’t going to have the foresight to shield jump backwards immediately after being rezzed, and I’m trying to base this off practice, but it demonstrates how flimsy nading past the shield is.

It doesn’t prevent Zenyatta from dishing out the healing. It prevents Zenyatta’s teammates from receiving the healing.

The ultimate itself isn’t affected.

This would be comparable to Mercy pressing Q, losing her Rez and her team just not being revived. You’re not doing a great job of understanding how the two scenarios are different.

If the team gets wiped right after being Resurrected, Mercy received no value from Resurrect.

See, this is where we need new words. “Value” and “value” are different. Look the same, don’t they? For example, kills are valuable, right? Widow gets 4 kills. That’s a lot of value. Enemy Grav-Bomb kills everyone but the tanks, who Tracer and Zarya clean up. Suddenly, those 4 Kills lose all of their value. But getting 4 kills is still incredibly valuable. Again, a somewhat unlikely example, but I’m just giving a scenario.

If Mercy Rezzes 5 people, then she got loads of value. But if they can’t win the fight despite getting Rezzed, then Rez didn’t a achieve anything in the long run, so it’s considered to have been valuless. But it isn’t Rez’s vault that the team still lost. Rez did literally everything it could. It 100% fulfilled it’s potential - it gave the team another chance. That is the value of Rez. However, this gets degraded to “Valuless Rez” when it’s on the players to make the win out of the opportunity.

Going by that terminology, it’s not Transcendence that is important; it is the value gained from it.

If Transcendence is unimpeded, but it holds no value in this situation, the ultimate is useless.

If Resurrect is unimpeded, but holds no value in this situation, the ultimate is useless.

You’re trying to make a differentiation between two things that at the end of the day, result in exactly the same thing.

Again, no. The job of Trans is to outheal sustain damage. If someone gets bio-naded, then directly prevents Trans from doing its job. Rez’s job is to give you another opportunity to fight without waiting 15+ seconds and without giving the enemy time to group up, wait for any lost members, heal up and take good positioning. That Rez’s job. It will do this 100% on every Q press. It is not Rez’s job to win you the fight.

If Mercy’s teammates are scattered in space and/or time, Resurrect has no value, or potentially negative value.

This is true for every support Ult, and isn’t “counter play”.

If Mercy is dead, Resurrect has no value.

This is true for every Ult.

If the enemy team drops an ultimate on the freshly-revived team, Resurrect has no value, or potentially negative value.

No, you got an extra Ult out of it and are going into the next fight at least even when you would have been down an Ult, or ahead by an Ult, if they used an Ult to wipe in the first place. That’s value.

Where are you getting the notion that I said it is?

You’re whole argument is based on the fact that Rez doesn’t always win you the fight, therefore it’s bad.

If the enemy plays their hand well, Resurrect can have so little value that it simply isn’t worth using it. That’s exactly my point.

Yes, but when your argument is the Rez equivalent of “Dragon blades a terrible Ult. Just sleep dart him! 4Head. Negative value Ult” your point isn’t exactly as strong as you think it is.

EMP on Sound Barrier or the Biotic Grenade on Transcendence… if you could even call it a fight at that point.

This is actually a bad comparison on my part. At least with Lucio. If you get countered by another Ult. That’s value. So EMPing a Sound Barrier is very similar to Graving Newly-Rezzed. But bio-nading Trans is not, since Ana’s team loses nothing for it.

If their team is the one deciding when the engagement begins, why are they banking on Resurrect when they already have an advantage?

Again, you can make a play-perfect scenario, but it’s not real so it doesn’t mean much. Early pick =/= won fight. That’s before you consider the fact that people make mistakes. We’re not all super humans that know exactly how the fight should be played to ensure a win and can’t replicate it easily.

Which was exactly what Resurrect was designed to punish. If you get carried away and blow ultimates unnecessarily, it backfires. The solution? Be smart about your ultimates

This goes back to my point about chess. Mercy has the power to undo any offensive ult/combo of her choice (if she’s alive). So, the engaging team can use 1 Ult and risk it not being enough to kill the team, or they can use more Ults and risk Mercy getting a lot of value from Rez.

And Resurrect was on par with said support ults.

In terms of value, yes (arguably stronger, but I’ll settle for on par) but it had significantly less counter play. Plethora of counter abilities/Ults vs hope you kill her before she can get it off.

There are 4 other players on the team, correct?

Yes? I don’t see your point? If that ult combo is, say Nano-Blade, or Grav Strike, how much Ult charge do you think the other 4 players are actually going to get?

Why are they using 2 ultimates in a fight that is either a 5v6, or a 6v6 in which they didn’t kill the Mercy with either of those ultimates?

Already addressed this. You repeating it doesn’t mean I need to re-answer it.

team hardly has any time to reposition before being thrown into the fight.

Neither team has time to reposition before the fight.

Then they got outplayed, looking at how all of those advantages favored them

I thought you were initially saying the other team had the advantage?

If you kill… 10 players in one fight, then yeah, you very well might charge 3 ultimates, if you include the healing done in all of that.

Killing with Ults does not grant charge.

The numbers can’t lie.

I’m not saying that they’re lying. Or that they’re even wrong. I’ve already voiced my opinion on this.

That context doesn’t necessarily need to be in-game experience, although it does help. That context can be more specific statistics, or statistics from an earlier date. For example, before Mercy’s last nerf was announced, I made a thread dissecting current and previous statistics to show that, according to the statistics, Mercy was overpowered.

I could go back and use those same statistics along with current statistics to make a post demonstrating how underpowered Mercy currently is.

Context less statistics don’t give context to context less statistics

[Arceus-2238]

Oh, okay then. I don’t think there’s too much though

[PharHǝntoi-1208]

It rewarded Mercy’s for poor ult usage and thus there was never a bad time to use her ult.

Solorez to not die to a flanker.

Temporez to keep your teammates up.

Massrez to turn the tides of a team fight.

Essentially there were no clear lines to what a good or bad Mercy ult was. That blurred the lines, and obfuscated the SR system.

Prior to invuln, if a Mercy tried to go for a mass rez, she would either die before or after she pressed Q. That was her punishment for a bad ult.

Then after rez, Mercy could automatically start charging her next ult, and keep her team healed up. This was too strong if the enemy was at a player disadvantage.

This promoted sloppy mercy play and hide and rez was the easiest strat to pull off with the highest reward:

Play sloppy, force ults, die on point, Mercy takes 1-2 seconds to fly out, press Q when threatened.

It wasn’t a problem because it always happened, it was a problem when it happened.

The ONLY counterplay was to EMP the Mercy since EMP is the closest thing to instant denial. No CC was instant, any damage done to the Mercy would threaten her and she’d press Q to bail, even if it was at the cost of not rezzing a teammate or two.

Rez invuln was the worst idea after brig, and rez on E. In what world, should you be rewarded for walking into an enemy team and pressing Q?

Rez invuln is the biggest double standard introduced to OW. Pharah’s ult is literally a meme, and yet the Mercy’s getting called out for poor ults got the buffs that ruined her, and this game for a year.

[TheMaelstrom-11479]

Bringing up to 5 people back from the dead, if it wasnt for how bad the rest of mercys kit was and ana being op at the time, mercy wouldve been op back then too.

Ally Rez never should have been a mechanic in this game, this is the only game with ‘full ally back from the dead revive’ function.

Remove rez and id be okay with whatever they do to mercy in buffs.

[Titanium-1686]

Yea, but once the objective has been done,

The objective hasn’t been completed yet, has it?

Mercy is still alive.

[Arceus-2238]

“Hide n Res” didn’t have the highest reward though.

@PharHǝntoi-1208

Play sloppy, force ults, die on point, Mercy takes 1-2 seconds to fly out, press Q when threatened.

Playing sloppy can force ults, especially in a 5v6? Let’s be realistic here.

@PharHǝntoi-1208

The ONLY counterplay was to EMP the Mercy since EMP is the closest thing to instant denial. No CC was instant, any damage done to the Mercy would threaten her and she’d press Q to bail, even if it was at the cost of not rezzing a teammate or two.

Rez invuln was the worst idea after brig, and rez on E. In what world, should you be rewarded for walking into an enemy team and pressing Q?

Rez invuln is the biggest double standard introduced to OW. Pharah’s ult is literally a meme, and yet the Mercy’s getting called out for poor ults got the buffs that ruined her, and this game for a year.

Agree with this.

@PharHǝntoi-1208

Essentially there were no clear lines to what a good or bad Mercy ult was. That blurred the lines, and obfuscated the SR system.

Intentionally letting your team die to res is a bad Mercy ult

Tempo ressing is a good Mercy ult.

• The SR exploit made it hard to tell which strategy was the best. I’ll tell you now, from what I know since season 3 to 5 as a GM Mercy main. Tempo ressing is the best.

@TheMaelstrom-11479

Bringing up to 5 people back from the dead, if it wasnt for how bad the rest of mercys kit was and ana being op at the time, mercy wouldve been op back then too.

I disagree. The game since then has had some serious power creeps. Heroes are way more broken than before.

@TheMaelstrom-11479

Ally Rez never should have been a mechanic in this game, this is the only game with ‘full ally back from the dead revive’ function.

As this game is a hybrid of 2 game types, it doesn’t have to follow any sort of rules.

@TheMaelstrom-11479

Remove rez and id be okay with whatever they do to mercy in buffs.

How about this?

@Titanium-1686

Valkyrie:

• Removed.

Resurrect:

• Removed as a basic ability and placed as Mercy’s ultimate ability.
• 15 meter range.
• Line of sight requirement. Does not apply to destructibles, payloads, or non-fundamental map obstacles that are too small to actually obscure a player. In other words, none of that BS where a player can move behind a lamp post to evade a nuclear explosion.
• 1 second cast time. Basic movement is unrestricted while casting, but all attacks and abilities are disabled for Mercy during this time.
• If Mercy is stunned or killed while casting, Resurrect does not activate and Mercy loses all ultimate charge.
• All living allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends receive a burst heal of 150 HP. Mercy also receives this burst heal.
• All dead allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends are revived at full health and receive 2.25 seconds of invulnerability (same as current Resurrect and Resurrect pre-rework).
• Mercy does not receive invulnerability upon Resurrect’s activation.
• Resurrect does not require dead allies to be activated.
• 1625 ultimate charge requirement (the same as Mercy 1.x’s Resurrect).

Most importantly, this takes Resurrect off one of Mercy’s basic abilities and places it into a position that matches its ultimate-like behavior. On top of this, various trade-offs were made to the ability to allow for the healing burst and the introduction of a second basic ability.

The healing burst, post-rez vulnerability, cast time, and LoS requirements all incentivise using Resurrect to revive 0-3 players rather than 4+ players. Attempting to use it on four or more players runs a greater risk a failed resurrect attempt due to the cast time. If Mercy manages to use Resurrect, there is a greater chance that she missed some allies due to the LoS requirement. If those two drawbacks do not drag her team down enough, there is also the fact that Mercy is vulnerable post-rez while her teammates are still reviving.

The healing burst and fire-at-will mechanics on Resurrect make the ability more flexible and open up some unique uses for it. For example, Mercy could use Resurrect to grant her team a burst of healing in the middle of the teamfight to keep their momentum going rather than waiting for an ally to rejoin the fight after being killed and revived.

New Basic Ability - Pacify:

• After a .5 second wind-up, Mercy launches a single hitscan attack from her left hand.
• The projectile’s hitbox size resembles that of Symmetra’s secondary fire.
• The projectile deals no damage upon impact with an enemy. Instead, it applies a debuff that reduces the base damage dealt by the target by 33%. 100 damage is reduced to 67 damage before other damage amplifiers/reductions are factored in.
• This debuff lasts for 4 seconds.
• The projectile does not persist once it hits an enemy. It is only able to affect one enemy for each use.
• The projectile is blocked by barriers, Defense Matrix, and Particle Barriers. It can be deflected by Genji’s Deflect ability.
• 10 second cooldown. The cooldown begins after the ability is cast.
• There is a .25 second wind-down time after Pacify is launched.
• During the wind-up and wind-down times, Mercy is not able to use her staff, her pistol, or Resurrect. She may use Guardian Angel, however.
• Does not affect non-player entities and constructs (turrets, Rip-Tire, Supercharger, etc).

[TheMaelstrom-11479]

still not balanceable, rez as a mechanic, not an ultimate specifically or ability specifically, will never be balanceable.

[Arceus-2238]

Still is balanceable.

[TheMaelstrom-11479]

id preferably just remove the unbalanceable mechanic, or in your view ‘balanceable butd take a ton of time and work’ mechanic.

Rez is a bundle of problems the game doesnt need.

[Arceus-2238]

That can be fixed very easily.

[BlueMonkey-21650]

No counterplay

If they allowed Sombra to cancel MR while the team is still yellow (being rezed) or by making the enemy shield blocks souls. I think it would have been fine.

Or If the made the teammates who got rezed start with 1hp then they receive 200hp/s or something like that so Ana can use her Anti to counter the rez.

But, noooo. let’s rework her.

[TheMaelstrom-11479]

no it cant lol, if it could be itd have been done already as blizzard loves taking the easy way out

[Arceus-2238]

“Easy way out”. That assertion is already disproven by the amount of reworks heroes got.

[TheMaelstrom-11479]

few examples to take away from the many that back up mine.

[Arceus-2238]

Yeah, no. They’ve failed one to many times at taking the easy route. Especially for Mercy.

[Praetorian-21563]

A cast time would not fix it. The cast time would either be too short to feasibly react to, or too long to complete without being interrupted.

[Arceus-2238]

1 second is neither too short or too long when compared to other ultimate cast times.

[TheMaelstrom-11479]

other ultimates cant revive your teammates

[Arceus-2238]

Other ultimates; most ultimates are wiping ultimates. Those are already better than Resurrect. Then there’s support ultimates like Zen’s and Lucio’s. Which is better? It certainly isn’t mass Resurrect.

• An ultimate that turns the entire team into tanks for the next few seconds, in most cases more than tripling a team’s collective health pool, adding to the team’s sustained momentum and offering no advantages to the enemy team?
• An ultimate that makes a team effectively immortal for 6 seconds save for a few specific attacks and abilities, adding to the team’s sustained momentum and offering no advantages to the enemy team?
• An ultimate that brings the team back to life after all momentum has been lost and granting the enemy team both the positioning advantage and the first shot?

Not exactly a hard decision.

[TheMaelstrom-11479]

titanium seems to be the spokesperson for mercy, except titanium forgot one big thing about mass rez.

Mass rez = an ultimate that brings the team back to life after all momentum has been lost and granting the enemy team both the positioning advantage and the first shot? BUT the mercys team has the ability advantage and ult advantage 9/10 as most of the time the enemy team used a lot of resources to wipe them.

Lucios ult and trans are extremely good, but the enemy team just has to prolong the fight for those ults to stop their effect, then use their resources and they win. Not to mention there was multiple ways back then to bypass trans, and a lot of burst ults chewed through lucio ult.

The only reasons mercy was not good back then was because ana herself was overpowered and mercys healing was what it is now, and had worse mobility and a worse passive

cant have two main healers in a comp to be viable