Aka, “stuff that’s never going to happen” versus “nerfing a handful of heroes”
People really will bend-over-backwards to make their main work instead of actually addressing the problems.
We need to stop nerfing and buffing in general, all it does is cause more problems after putitng a band aid on previous problems (Example: McCree). Right now, there needs to be the three patches I’ve mentioned, and the game would be overnight better than it has for the past 2 years.
I’m all for fixing tanks, but putting them on the pedastool of what’s broken is not the way to go.
Top 3 problems atm I guess would be
1.) Bugs
2.) Balance
3.) No updates
(I’d throw in Doom’s entire existance but he’s just one walking giant bug)
Wrong, I know he’s strong, but he’s not OP. Grab a shield, watch your positioning, and counter him, and he’s gone. The issue people don’t like is there’s no middle ground with Hanzo. He’s either going to be 100% useless or 100% dominating. He’s a full go big or go home hero, but let’s humble each other and you answer me this.
Why do you want him nerfed? Specifics.
Preach.
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That’s the funny part; I want him buffed, but you’re too pig-headed to have an honest conversation about it.
Then why were you so defensive at me saying he’s fine where he is, it came off as him being OP and you wanting him nerfed, or at least my previous experiences on forums being the “NO HE’S OP!!!” whenever anything said is against what they think.
If you truly want him buffed and not nerfed, just say that. I said numerous times he’s not OP but strong, and fine where he is, as he’s a hero that is either going to be useless as hell or dominate and that tells me to focus them.
Now what buff and what compensation nerf?
Because the conversation is far more nuanced than ‘Over-powered’ or ‘Under-powered’. The real question is ‘why are you so aggressive at others for suggesting there’s anything wrong with his design?’.
There are many places where he is under-powered, they should be addressed. There are fewer places where he’s over-powered, they should also be addressed.
You said it yourself;
He’s volatile. There’s no gradient to his skill-expression and that forces the game to take many more trials to understand that skill was demonstrated. For a Hanzo one-trick, this means slow SR changes. For everyone else, it means lesser control of their current games.
He can’t have a high-damage, low fire-rate weapon without the TTK of the game being blown-up massively, to gather sufficient data to for the game to understand where skill is being shown.
As I have stated before. But to my recollection I have never seen anyone write or say the words “They have X tank, someone go hanzo”
Based on both from my gameplay and all high level streams I’ve watched through the years.
Wouldn’t that imply that he is not considered a “tank buster” ?
Don’t you think this was kind of the idea the devs had? There’s always picks that slow down (Mei), or make the game far more hectic (Sombra, Doomfist). He’s a sit back and pick people hero and that slows the game down, giving control to his team, and the trade off being that he’s either going to have no value due to map, positioning, etc, or you’re going to have a Hanzo that makes you want to leave. As someone who plays a lot of Hanzo, I can just feel when I know he’s not going to work, like against a good Tracer or Genji, to swap, which is what you do with an enemy Hanzo. You force him to focus one of your DPS in a duel and hope your DPS can 1v1 him.
Toss a Winston in there and you’ll see a useless Hanzo.
I agree with this.
However, I do think it’s reasonable for Hanzo to have some self-defensive power beyond the lunge, given how short the range is. I also think it’s reasonable for him to have better close-range power than Ashe or Widow because it’s harder to shoot accurately at range with an arced projectile and no scope. I just think it should be less, or at least less effective at melting tanks.
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Literally-zero of what I wrote was about the pacing of any match?
‘removing control’ is contrary to a competitive space. Competition is about judging choices.
Yes, you can throw Winston in there and it’ll nullify Hanzo almost all of the time. Issue is, like we said; the volatility. Hanzo can land a headshot on a Jumping Winston, crippling him and marking him for death. Issue is; Winston did nothing wrong in that encounter; that’s his job as a consistent counter. Hanzo might have showed sufficient skill to land that shot, but;
- Is the game able to judge that well?
- Should he be able to do that to his counter, especially since it’s so unreliable to do?
I think the answer to both is ‘no’. Not just for Hanzo, but for all heroes in a similar situation. Most heroes can’t do that because they behave predictably and controllably, as they should in a game that judges one’s control.
Your logic is very flawed and it bothers me how common it is.
They did not ask for said heroes. Many DPS players have problems and are vocal about those busted heroes. By no means do I think it’s wrong to criticize those people who defend busted heroes. But this whole “the DPS players are all bad” is so flawed and gross. There are so many DPS players who are happy to call out busted heroes and do so in that category.
By your logic, I should demonize people for playing Sigma. I should also do that with Baptiste players. I should also then assume anyone who defends those two heroes are emblematic of the entire category, therefore all tank and support players are the same.
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Hanzo is okay, just buff Tanks, except Roadhog.
Because the OW1 balance timeline was as follows:
- GOATS broke the game
- A series of balance changes and new heroes were designed to break goats
- Rolequeue deleted goats and the reason for these changes
- These changes remained for another twelve thousand years
- They continued releasing twenty million new DPS heroes that were designed to murder tanks by looking at them
- Five hundred years later, they started reconsidering whether tank busting is still necessary when triple tank is banned
- Game died before anything was fixed, but at least OW2 will delete tank busting
- I can’t do exaggerated chronologies properly cause my math is garbage
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The real reason. There’s not enough balance staff to look down the check list where it says “Reduce Hanzo’s threat at close distance in relation to tanks” dated back to 2019
Because someone has to. Reaper doesn’t work
I genuinely wonder how they can consider Hanzo a sniper, yet deadly at close-range.
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Not to diminish your other arguments (because they are good and reasonable), but this one isn’t very good.
You can’t really ignore or choose to not dive a specific character. Because at some point, you’re going to have to face them. Whether it’s sooner or later, it’s irrelevant; that choice doesn’t exist in a competitive game.
Not quite. Wrecking Ball has a fairly powerful gun. The problem is, that it’s greatly affected by armor. 4x5 damage means his damage is reduced by half four times.
This is incorrect. Ashe does not fire faster. What changed with Ashe was the transition between scoped and unscoped shots to improve the feel of her gun and gunplay. Today, Ashe does less damage, as a whole and overall, than she did when she was released. But, she is also much more consistent with her shots than she had been when she first released.
Incorrect. Charge up time increased, body-shot damage decreased.
Early-launch Widowmaker was a tank-killer.
Turrets do the same damage, but marked up as fewer turrets needed to be deployed. Same with the slow effect.
Burst damage was not affected. Ammo was decreased, Focusing Beam range was decreased, Focusing Beam duration decreased by a half second.
McCree’s FTH damage used to do 70x6. Today it’s 50x6
Hanzo’s Storm Arrows used to do 80x6, today it’s 70x5.
Tracer’s Pulse Bomb used to do 400 damage. Today it’s 350 and on a longer ultimate charge.
Reaper used to do 160 damage and had Souls from fallen opponents that regenerated 100 health. Today, Reaper does 120 damage and 35% of that damage is returned as health.
Sombra’s damage remains the same. spread has been reduced.
Genji’s damage has been increased by point; from a previous high of 32 damage per shuriken in beta. Today, Dragonblade remains at 6 seconds instead of 8 seconds and damage from dragonblade has been reduced to 110.
Incorrect. Since GOATS;
- Reinhardt’s damage has been increased. move speed has been increased. Steadfast passive has been added.
- Winston’s barrier health has been increased, cooldown decreased.
- Orisa’s damage has been increased; move speed while firing increased, projectile speed increased. Fortify is now immune to critical hits.
- Roadhog’s Take a Breather now has a Fortify-effect; damage has been increased, Whole Hog has been improved.
- D.va’s armor has been increased, move speed while firing increased, Boosters cooldown decreased, Call Mech damage increased.
Zarya is the only one who hasn’t seen a net increase in overall buffs. Wrecking Ball and Sigma weren’t part of the GOATS period nor were they rotated in. However…
- Wrecking Ball can now activate barrier in Ball form; Mine Field covers a wider area. Automatically reloads while in Ball form. Mostly these are quality of life buffs.
It can be argued that defense-wise (particularly in barrier health) there was some reductions in defenses, but most tanks got improvements elsewhere, either through mobility, offensively, or otherwise.
These happened after GOATS.
Incorrect.
Fundamentally, due to the changes in compositions, Damage-role heroes are now struggling for relevancy, when during the GOATS period they were considered irrelevant. Today, only a handful of Damage-heroes are considered useful, most are not and many aren’t picked at all. As a whole, Tanks continue to thrive and Supports remain a bit more diversified, but Damage continues to vary between being relevant or irrelevant. Viability isn’t really the question; rather the issue is whether or not a Damage-role hero can claw through all defenses and healing to manage to dent or impact the heavy amount of sustain on the opposing team. Not many can do this.
There is no problem with burst.
Earliest Blizzard games include the original WarCraft, and Rock n’Roll Racing. They know what competitive games are.
Granted, the Overwatch team comes from an MMO-design environment and much of the work on Overwatch’s roles is based around that. And Tigole Bitties used to play a Halfling Rogue and was a vocal opponent to hybrids; and that may have colored his views a bit. But I think the rest of the team would have a better understanding of competitive design templates.
Overwatch was in development for at least 3 years after the failed MMO development and before closed-beta launched. So this seems irrelevant.
Similar situations happen in fighting games like (and especially) Tekken where picking certain characters and mashing can end up winning quite a few games against more intermediate players or even serious ones learning the game. This isn’t really unusual, and it’s pretty typical in Blizzard games (though many would find this unfair).
This isn’t unique to Overwatch and many Blizzard games are similarly “harsh” when you get down to it or even analyze it. Zerg rushes and cannon rushes are still a thing in StarCraft 2.
I’m not quite sure what the best solution would be to fix it; other than slowing the game down tremendously. Blizzard could do more with hit detection and reception (and just game-to-player communication). Tutorials would help a lot too. As far as OW2 is concerned, it does not look like hit detection would be improved upon here.
That’s not what he’s saying.
Bloated? He has the same number of skills as Doomfist
Hanzo:
- Storm Bow (Primary Fire)
- Storm Arrows
- Recon Arrow
- Lunge
- Wall Climb
- Ultimate
Doomfist
- Primary Fire
- Rocket Punch
- Seismic Slam
- Uppercut
- The Best Defense (passive)
- Ultimate
And that’s still fewer than Mercy, or any similar Tank hero has.
That’s not what he said.
It’s not 475, it’s 350 damage. 70x5. Learn some math. Available once every 10-seconds. so it’s nowhere near 318 DPS.
Not even close to the same thing. Reaper does this every clip. Hanzo does this once every 10 seconds.
There is a skill gradient. It’s largely about consistency, which he has a problem with and it can’t really be addressed in the current Overwatch. So you get situations where he gets lucky headshots because someone walked into his path (or lagged into/out of it), or you get a situation where he doesn’t headshot you and you just take massive damage instead, but are alive long enough to get healed and Hanzo isn’t consistent enough to kill afterwards (or the next shot takes too long). That’s where improving the gunplay will matter. If they can fix that, there should be less issues and more defined skill gradient.
It is there and you can improve from it, but Overwatch wants to be what Blizzard wants it do be. Very fast paced where incidents of death can be accidental or skillful. That’s good and bad, but there’s certainly an issue where players don’t even recognize that they made a mistake and blame it on the game. That’s something that’s… pretty common in all Blizzard games, but not unusual in a lot of American or Western-made games.
He can, as can others, but this has to be in the direction that Blizzard wants for the the game and it’s hard to say if they’ll attempt to go in this direction with OW2. So far, they seem to want to get back to launch-era pacing which was much faster than current.
Hanzo is basically useless as it is, he also does not at all compete with Widow which is causing problems.
I propose going from 5 storm arrows down to 3 and giving him his 2019 projectile speed back in return, so he can actually be a proper sniper and compete with Widow again.
The other way of course is enemy Ana 'nading the tank. I think Ana is at the core of most of what’s wrong with the state of the game. If she was reworked into a high-consistency, medium average output healer with one high-ish cooldown burst heal ability and some utility for personal survival instead of the low-consistency-but-every-ability-has-huge-impact monster that she currently is, that would go a long way towards paving the way for the toning down of burst damage that this game desperately needs.
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