Oh. 
Dang it.
I wish rez was instant during Valk and her gun was buffed a little more. Right now she is juggling only healing and damage boosting for about 95% of the time. If she also had to juggle diving in for an instant rez or pulling out the pistol more often the ult would be more engaging, impactful, and fun. I’ll still take Valk any day over mass rez, but these buffs would make it much better.
I already did explain amigo. If you have a character A which requires no mechanical skill and character B that requires mechanical skill, character A’s output cannot be the same as character B because no one in their right mind would choose character B over character A. Since character A would be consistent 100% of the time. This is a simple irrefutable logic that if you choose to ignore means you will need to eliminate any form of mechanical skill out of the equation when designing characters. This is clearly not the case in the design that Blizzard has for all their heroes and particularly for supports so your argument that mechanical skill is somehow interjecting bias is blatantly wrong. From there on all your positions and opinions are flawed because your original cornerstone is wrong. You cannot deny this simple balance/design logic, it’s irrefutable.
I’ve already proved your assertions wrong multiple times. Strawman all you like and bring in the cavalry to help you, the fact remains this is inherent logic when design is concerned.
This is a strawman again, involving others have no relevance to the conversation nor is any argument. Nor has any relevance to my argument.
I already did, I already am. 
Your basic foundation is wrong and your rework idea is blatantly OP, not to mention mass rez on it’s own is a broken mechanic.
Ah, the catch-phrase of all the Reverts, denying you have a specific sub-group that pushes the Revert agenda and that you communicate off the forums is silly and I already have more than enough evidence to back up that claim. Don’t bring out the straight jacket yet as another one of your pack-mates suggested.
This is a strawman again, I will never find two identical threads because no one writes perfectly identical to another person. The message is the same. Your simple tactics in debate are so obvious.
Being in an echo chamber is much more likely to further a confirmation bias my friend.
If you bothered to actually check all my posts and bring it out, you could have found plenty of occasions where Reverts falsely reported me for a real life threat that never happened, hi-jacked my Symmetra thread and generally accused me of stuff that never happened/attempted character assassination.
Popularity is irrelevant, truth and facts are what is important. People can demand the minimum wage to become 3k euro/month and I bet you this would get major popularity and traction but the simple reality is that it’s not the case.
Is this the to-go argument when everything else fails? If only Reverts provided citations for every opinion piece they wrote. Citation for what my friend? My opinion is supported by the virtue of mass rez not existing. This is again irrefutable fact. Mass Rez doesn’t exist, if there wasn’t enough traction this wouldn’t have happened. But the reality is that outside your echo chamber (the forums), reddit, the pros, players by and large agreed that mass Rez wasn’t healthy for the game. I’m not going to find you perfect statistics because A) you are not important enough for me to waste time with that, B) there is probably no way to get an accurate measurement in all honesty, C) it was supported by the developers themselves. At the end of the day, you cannot deny that a huge percent supported, much more than your simple 800 people (how many of which are actually smufs/alt account is another topic, also not gonna bother to investigate because quite frankly I don’t care that much). And even than it doesn’t matter because the developers with all their tools, mountain of raw data and information who can actually see the bigger picture (better than me or you for that matter) also supported this statement and hence mass rez is no longer in the game. This is simple and irrefutable fact.
PS. Thanks by the way, got a meeting later today with foreign investors and I feel like my English is going to be sharp as cowboy’s spurs. These debates are very useful to wake up with a cup of coffee.
Objectively incorrect when you realize that this is a game, and players decide who to play between two balanced heroes based upon what is most fun for them.
If Ana and Mercy were of the same power level, players would chose based upon who they like to play more.
Skill =/= consistency.
Want a counterexample?
Junkrat.
Playing Junkrat doesn’t require much mechanical skill. And yet… he’s one of the most inconsistent heroes in the game. Pharah, who requires more mechanical skill, is far more consistent.
Consistency (or lack thereof) is balanced by burst potential (or lack thereof). Ana is less consistent than Mercy, therefore she has a much higher rate of healing on her Biotic Rifle than Mercy does on her Caduceus Staff. On top of that, she has Biotic Grenade, which features instant AoE heal for 100 health.
Overwatch was designed to cater to a broad fanbase, pulling not only from FPS players, but MOBA, RPG, and RTS games. If they were to make heroes that require high mechanical skill objectively better than the heroes who do not, they would alienate a very large portion of their playerbase. Thus, they balance (or try to anyway, they aren’t very good at it) based upon hero power levels, not how a few elite players feel about their aim.
I just did. Seen Junkrat vs Pharah.
You haven’t even brought said assertions up.
Find me a single instance in which I created a strawman, and tell me exactly how that was a strawman.
I’ll wait.
Until you do, I will assume that any quote from you is fair game, as I have been assuming thus far.
Lol.
You spent about half of these two paragraphs creating an argument. Then you spent the other half bragging about how you created an argument.
I did not put words in your mouth, nor did I say that you made X argument; it is not a strawman. I brought up additional information that provides context, and illustrates why another person saying that the proposed build is OP is not concerning to me.
…Maybe that explains why you say I’ve been constructing “strawman” arguments. You don’t know what an strawman is.
I have seen zero quotations from said thread.
No, you haven’t. You haven’t even provided the context for you to begin doing so.
That was literally the first time I, or anyone that I know of, has said that.
And it’s appropriate. You are constructing conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality.
Last I checked, we’re all for another rework.
Did you read the rework proposal? Because if you did, you would know that.
Oh, that’s no secret. Is there a problem with some of us communicating off the forums?
Let’s take a look at that “strawman”. Here is the relevant part of where the chain started:
To which you replied with:
But in order for a threads providing legitimate feedback to be spam, they must not be unique. Therefore, if you are arguing that the threads are spam, unless they are irrelevant or inflammatory, you must also be arguing that have identical counterparts.
Which, now that you realize you cannot reinforce that assertion, you ditch the position and accuse me of constructing a strawman.
My overall view on the Mercy rework has been the same since October. If anything, the confirmation bias came from the patch notes, as nothing screams “failure” like 14 consecutive nerfs. I have kept in touch with reality. You, on the other hand…
And then there’s the good old “you all are cultists… no wait, that’s a metaphor”.
I’m not going to go digging through your post history to find something that reinforces a point you are making when the burden of proof is on you.
“Go find me something that proves my point.”
You sure did a great job of making it relevant:
And you have yet to actually open the post to say why any of the assertions there are not the above.
Nope. It’s the go-to question when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim than most people in their right minds find to be intuitively absurd. There’s no point in trying to kick the leg out from under the table if the table doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
Now that is a metaphor.
We don’t go around saying that we are being mass false-flagged by the opposition without providing a source that supports our assertion that they are doing so. For example:
That Sprinkles person abuses the flagging feature quite often. Need proof? Don’t take it from me. Take from them!
Sorry, but “You are false-flagging my posts” and “The majority of players hated mass-rez” aren’t exactly opinions. They are assertions that are either correct, or incorrect. There is no “that is my opinion” here.
Is this that recycled argument of “The developers did it, therefore it is justified/correct”?
Oh boy.
You’re talking about the same people who:
- Wanted D.Va to be more of a bully tank, so they granted her 100 additional armor.
- Backtracked on that and decided that they wanted D.Va to be less of a bully tank, so they reworked her health/armor and buffed DM. They supported this notion with “Protect the Rip-Tire”.
- Doubled back again and decided they wanted D.Va to be more of a bully tank, nerfing DM and granting her Micro-Missiles.
- Left Sombra in garbage tier for well over a year after her launch before buffing her into… almost-not-garbage tier for two weeks. Then they… nerfed her back into garbage tier.
- Left Sombra in garbage tier for months before changing her, allowing her to ascend to… still garbage tier.
- Left Bastion in garbage tier for months before reworking him into into god tier. They then left him in that state for about a week on PC (a full month on consoles) before nerfing him once again back into garbage tier. They have not touched him since then.
- Took 8 months to grant Widowmaker a simple cooldown reduction buff; one that had been universally requested by the community for that duration. Then they half-backtracked on that exact cooldown reduction.
- Left Hanzo in garbage tier for nearly two years before finally reworking him, at which point he began to dominate the meta for months.
- Took months or years to fix obvious and trivial issues (bugs, hitbox irregularities), or sometimes completely ignore them despite obvious discussion on them: Genji’s deflect, Doomfist’s hitboxes, Reinhardt’s Earthshatter, Mercy’s post-rework GA bug, etc.
- Listed known and fully-functional features as “bugs” so they can remove them. This has happened twice; once to Mercy, once to Lucio.
- Are responsible for Mercy’s rework and how it turned out.
- Have yet to bring Torbjorn out of garbage tier.
- Have yet to bring Mei out of garbage tier.
- Have yet to bring Reaper out of garbage tier.
- Have yet to bring Symmetra out of garbage tier despite two reworks.
- Decided not to add an LFG system until two years after the game’s release.
The Recent Sombra changes were universally unsupported, and they went through anyway. The developers don’t care about how unpopular a set of changes are once they hit the PTR. At least some of it is going through.
There have been only 3 instances that I know of where the PTR has been altered before going live.
Strange how the official Overwatch Forums are suddenly our echo chamber.
Hm. Once again, this looks to me like you cannot accept that the community on the forums hates the rework.
You realize there are no statistics that back your claim, therefore you cannot provide them, thus your assertion isn’t reinforceable and can disregarded as false or invalid.
See the list posted above.
I cannot argue against it because there are not statistics for it.
You cannot argue the affirmative either… because there are no statistics for it.
And much more than the 800 people (now 930) agree with my position.
Is that suddenly so?
Because before, you seemed to be quite interested in that. Why the sudden turnaround?
The developers are flipping incompetent.
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Yet another false accusation.
Spam is spam. No matter how small.
you talk like mercy threads are actually spam, which they are not, they are justified opinions. Also spam is not “spam no matter what” as usually the identification of “spam” in a message is subjective.
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Oh I’m sorry, I could be missing something. Are you trying to claim that you don’t try to get people on these forums flagged (which is against the CoC by the way)?
Also, by your logic, are you not constantly spamming my thread with your constant derailing of my topic?
“Spam is spam right?”
~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls 
1 Like
It doesn’t seem so false, to me. You yourself admitted to it.
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Please, first of all try to stop false accusing the Mercy players of spamming the forums because:
1- The megathread got permanently locked thanks to people abusing the SR system (and I can bet something that the Mercy mains didn’t do that)
2- They want to play their favourite character but they hate it since it has been turned into a braindead and sluggish mediocrity which main purpose is to forgive bad game by her teammates if they can at least die next to a wall. Complaining about that is just fair and an obvious consequence of a poor game’s development which has endured for an entire year, time enough for being really upset.
This situation is beyond old. Please, it’s time to stop! (insert meme)
3 Likes
hey at least we can get a great view of ourselves dying!
A marvelous view! A glorious view! We’re making spectator mode great again!
~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls
And legitimate feedback does not spam just because you dislike it.
I didn’t need to make the accusation. You incriminated yourself when you said:
Which, according to the CoC, is abuse of the flagging system.
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Hahahahahahahhahahaha. I’m seriously keeping this for record. How in the hell people up-vote your thread is just beyond me. Thank god the developers don’t listen to you because honestly you have no idea how balance works at all and clearly you don’t understand anything about design either. I mean you are so fundamentally wrong I got nothing more to say to you, the rest will be pure humor.
Not my argument. Never said skill = consistency.
Have nothing to do with what I said. Inconsistent by what metric? They both shoot projectiles so how is Pharah more consistent? Your example is not only not relevant, it has nothing to do with what I said.
Power levels? (resisting hard not to make over 9000 joke) What does that even mean?
Clearly, if you can get to top 500 by one-tricking Mercy
Literally nothing in common or remotely close to my example. Nice strawman - I mean you are comparing a projectile character vs another projectile character when I’m comparing a hitscan mechanically intense hero vs. a hero with no mechanic requirement at all. Your example has literally zero relevance.
I literally did.
You just did. The lack of self-awareness is astounding.
Oook? Not sure what you mean here.
This has nothing to do with our discussions. Other people’s arguments are not my arguments, I speak only for myself.
This sentence makes no sense or at least I have no clue what you are trying to say.
Because I’m not going to bother looking at everybody’s profile one by one and because there’s no way I can legally prove which one is a smurf or alt. I have the technical capacity to do so if I wanted to however. In all honesty, I don’t really care that much. These debates real purpose for me are only to keep my english language and mind sharp when I use it in real life.
Hehueheuheueh. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about mate. And you’ve proven you don’t understand anything about balance or design.
Maybe because it actually makes sense? Based upon the fact that you outright refuse to disprove it? Maybe you cannot disprove it?
You do do an awful lot of bragging about something you cannot actually do. If it makes no sense, prove that it makes no sense.
In order for your assertions to make sense in succession (or out of succession, for that matter), the “skill = consistency” must be true.
You here state that character A does not require mechanical skill, while character B does. Both have the same power output. You then say that Character A would be picked more often than character B because character A is more consistent. For the first statement (skill) to be relevant to the second statement (consistency), there must be some association from skill to consistency. If there is no association between the two, you went from talking about skill to talking about something irrelevant to skill, and your argument becomes incoherent. The connection between skill to consistency to balance as you stated previously falls apart, as you outright admit that skill is not relevant to consistency.
So congratulations.
You just undermined your own argument.
See above.
Performance.
Pharah’s projectiles actually land where she shoots them. If you want consistency in performance, you pick Pharah. If you want inconsistency in performance but the potential to be more devastating in some scenarios, you pick Junkrat; he has more burst potential.
Pretty self-explanatory. Power levels are how powerful a hero is in contrast to their counterparts. A hero’s power level should be in line with the power level of their counterparts; that is how balance is achieved.
Try replacing “Mercy” with “Ana”.
Does switching the names make a difference?
If the answer is yes, you have proven exactly how injecting mechanical skill into balance is injecting bias into balance. If it is okay for one hero to be in top 500 via one-tricking, but not okay for another hero to be in top 500 via one-tricking, that, by the definition of “bias”, is bias.
No, you literally haven’t. There is not a single quote from that thread in your posts.
This is funny, being that you lack the self-awareness to realize that said assertion must have been implied for your argument to be coherent.
Either you are asserting that skill = consistency, and you need to disprove that Junkrat/Pharah counterexample and find me a strawman, or you are asserting that skill =/= to consistency, in which case your original argument isn’t even an argument.
This simply does not make any sense if skill =/= consistency.
Shall I quote you?
I mean…
This mess.
Oh, but it does.
I never said they were.
There are two grammatical errors there. It should be:
Then perhaps you should not be making claims that you cannot back up with facts.
Feel free.
You seemed to care an awful lot before I started questioning your assertions.
Actually, I do.
Are you ready for it?
That’s a pretty fluffy statement for someone who repeatedly refuses to back up their statements or outright undermines them one post later.
6 Likes
Man, you purposefully mis-read my arguments or you just don’t get it, I dunno. If a character doesn’t require any mechanical skill, basically holding a button to do the job, there isn’t any skill involved (unless you think holding a button is a skill ). That’s why skill =/= consistency because there isn’t any skill in the equation. It’s inherently not present as a variable. I dunno how much more I can simplify it for you. Obviously if we take the second example, a support that requires mechanical skill, the more skill she has the more consistent she would be. Seriously, that’s as simple as I can break down my argument, if you still don’t get it I will assume you are trolling. With that being said, if both healers have the same output - but one has a skill requirement but the other doesn’t, people will always pick the one that doesn’t because it is more consistent, because there isn’t a variable called skill present. This is bad design and bad balancing.
If you don’t get this simple irrefutable logic (and clearly you don’t), you have no place talking about balance/design at all because at your core you are wrong.
You cannot make a comparison between Junkrat and Pharah because both them have some basic mechanical skill requirement. I would argue that it’s more or less the same as they are both relatively very easy characters to play but that’s besides the point. Since both are projectiles you need account the trajectory and travel time and placement of enemy. Projectile =/= hitscan and completely irrelevant example because both characters require some form of aim skill regardless of how small it is. Not, the case with my example.
The rest of your stuff is just fluff.
O.o, you just skipped almost more than 3/4 of her reply.
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His argument is incorrect at its core. If you base your entire theory on a wrong supposition that makes your hypothesis and conclusions thereafter wrong.
Hmmm no, I think you are just refusing to accept the facts they’re giving you.
Throughout the majority of this exchange you have been doing nothing more than giving opinions, saying “I don’t care” or “You don’t know what you’re talking about.” They on the other hand, has constantly provided fact.
Just saying “Oh that’s fluff” because you don’t want to read said facts, doesn’t make them any less true. 
~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls 
2 Likes
i love how in valkyrie, youre advised AGAINST using rez (mercy’s strongest ability) because youll be wasting 2-3 seconds of the 15 second ult duration lmao. talk about counterintuitive… valkyrie enhances all her abilities! except for the one that actually has carry potential! yay
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