Valkyrie Playstyle

[Titanium-1686]

So holding M1 is something you consider skill.

Holding M1 the entire match is an ideal way to lose.

Oversimplifying things doesn’t help your positions.

Unless you are an absolute mind-mindbogglingly stupid

I’m sorry, but this clause is just hilarious.

What is " an absolute mind-mindbogglingly stupid"?

holding M1 is going to be consistent 100% of the time.

Consistent in that the healing stream to whichever target it first attaches to and then serves no other purpose until that target dies or leaves range.

In practice, simply holding M1 throws performance out the window. So sure, it is consistent in that it will consistently make you lose.

Now with Ana skill matters, the more mechanical skill she has, the more consistent she is going to be. You still with me? Or do I need to simplify it even more?

Likewise, the better the Mercy is, the better and more consistent their performance will be.

Ooookay, I don’t see any relevance here. Unless I gain you think holding M1

I think it’s pretty clear that you don’t know what switching targets is.

(I mean it already did but you entertain me hence why I keep coming).

I also enjoy this.

Again, I’m very specific with what I say and how I say it. My statement was in regard to Mercy, not a general statement.

If you are making a universal argument, the supporting assertions must also have the ability to be universally applied as well. If there are exceptions to your argument (Junkrat and Pharah), then the argument cannot be universally applied and thus falls apart in this context.

Hence the fact that “skill” doesn’t have any bearing in balance.

I guess you are just not smart enough to fall basic logical arguments.

There isn’t an argument to follow; it is incoherent and fractured.

I dunno what more I can say or how to simplify it further.

You could make the dots actually connect, for once.

But I know you are not stupid, you are just looking at breaking down my argument to bits that you can than interpret in your own way and twist to “win”.

I’m waiting for you to present a coherent argument that can actually be debated. If you say something, then backtrack and undermine what you said before going back to that very same position, there isn’t really much point in undermining the argument beyond what you have already done; you already kicked the support out from under it.

They both require about the same mechanical skill, but the example is still not relevant or applicable to mine,

False.

With Junkrat, you can fire in the general direction of the enemy to give them a hard time thanks to his faster fire rate and unpredictable projectile movement. With Pharah, you actually have to aim your shots to secure kills, as they will land and explode where you aimed them.

but the example is still not relevant or applicable to mine, and you miss that part conveniently.

Whether my example is relevant to your example is not important. What is important is that my example is relevant to your argument, which it is. It is a counterexample to your assertions (which you have backtracked and then returned to anyway).

[RevertMercy-1304]

Are you talking about stars in the Blizzard hero select thing? I mean really? Okay, I think I’m done with you.

You made the claim that mechanically demanding heroes should outperform non demanding ones. I’m merely giving you the facts. I’m sorry if realizing that Rein isn’t a mechanically skilled hero, yet is outperforming everyone else in the roster right now goes completely against your initial argument and shuts down every point you’ve made up until now. But it is what it is.

I’m assuming that such a revelation is a culture shock moment for you.

~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls

[Undertone-2728]

Holding M1 the entire match is an ideal way to lose.

Oversimplifying things doesn’t help your positions.

Changing my arguments or twisting them doesn’t help you either. Never claimed such a thing.

I’m sorry, but this clause is just hilarious.

What is " an absolute mind-mindbogglingly stupid"?

You understood what I meant, one clause didn’t throw you off You are getting silly at this point amigo. If you want to we can debate in my native language? Want to?

Consistent in that the healing stream to whichever target it first attaches to and then serves no other purpose until that target dies or leaves range.

Again, same tactic, you are taking my statements out of contexts because it’s the only way you can break them apart.

Likewise, the better the Mercy is, the better and more consistent their performance will be.

Compared to other Mercies yes, not compared to Ana. One has mechanical requirement, the other doesn’t.

I think it’s pretty clear that you don’t know what switching targets is.

Has nothing to do with my argument.

I also enjoy this.

Than at very least we can agree on something.

If you are making a universal argument, the supporting assertions must also have the ability to be universally applied as well. If there are exceptions to your argument (Junkrat and Pharah), then the argument cannot be universally applied and thus falls apart in this context.

Junkrat and Pharah shoot projectiles, Ana is a hitscan, Mercy doesn’t have aim requirement for healing. Junkrat and Pharah are not relevant examples.

You could make the dots actually connect, for once.

Cannot simplify my argument more than this alas, sorry.

I’m waiting for you to present a coherent argument that can actually be debated. If you say something, then backtrack and undermine what you said before going back to that very same position, there isn’t really much point in undermining the argument beyond what you have already done; you already kicked the support out from under it.

I haven’t undermined or back-tracked in any way. My statement was applied to a specific situation, not applied generally. You have the practice of taking parts of my argument which is inherently dishonest practice my friend. But I know you are trying your best to win this so I guess all is fair in love and war, no? It probably works against opponents that don’t know what you are trying to do ;p

With Pharah, you actually have to aim your shots to secure kills, as they will land and explode where you aimed them.

Travel time my friend, travel time. Same concept with Junkrat.

Whether my example is relevant to your example is not important. What is important is that my example is relevant to your argument, which it is

It’s not relevant to my argument either. You are comparing two heroes which are using projectiles. Literally nothing in common with my comparison (which is between a character that has mechanical skill vs. a character that has none of those requirements).

i do agree tho that up until now her whole kit was too simple to use, that’s why we need to revert it to when she needed more skill to be properly used.

You got that backwards, her kit was super simple to use (mass rez) and now requires some skill to use (single rez).

[Plarpoon-2445]

You got that backwards, her kit was super simple to use (mass rez) and now requires some skill to use (single rez).

In which way having a ress gifted every 30 seconds and being forced to ress behind cover instead of in the public is more difficult?

[Lithy-2614]

So holding M1 is something you consider skill.

So spamming M1 is something you consider skill xDDDD. Please, Soldier is way easier than Mercy, he is just pew pew pew and nothing else, that’s why it’s so difficult to show differences between good and bad Soldier players but so easy to find differences between good and bad Mercys. You must choose what are you going to do and who your target is going to be and when you can stop your job and start with another target. That takes skill and saying the opposite only shows that you either suck at her or never tried her seriously. Please, instead of calling people names, just move on, you are not bringing anything constructive here that way.

Nah, she heals automatically, just need to hold M1 (hold the gas). Ana has to heal manually (need to aim and press M1 / change gears and press gas). Makes sense?

Lucio heals automatically, Zen heals automatically after using his orb and while ulting, Moira and Mercy must hold their beams while pointing her targets, Soldier heals automatically in an aoe with a button, Roadhog heals automatically himself with a button, and the list could go on. Why in hell somepeople pretend to consider Ana the stereotype of the support in this game when she is the only one who needs to aim? I’m sorry if this can sound bad, but she is a weird support in this game. As you can see, Mercy is even harder in terms of healing than some supports out there, but hey, here is the magic, I don’t see anyone complaining about Lucio’s healing or Zen’s orbs. Why? Because they are, at least, fine. So Mercy who has harder healings than those two guys shouldn’t have a problem in that specific matter. Oh, wait, or did you played Mercy only pocketing all the time a single hero? Yeah, that takes no skill anyway, but is the easiest way to loose your games, so…

Oh, and good luck aiming Genji and Tracer with Ana. Why do you think that Mercy was the go-to support when dive meta unless you picked both Lucio and Zen?

Hey adults have their patience okay? I can only indulge children for so much before my meter fills in too. Don’t be angry please.

Mercy players are the most patient players in the world since they have been misstreated for more than an entire year and somepeople still comes here to spam and call them names.

I’m actually never rude or at least I don’t do it with the intention of being rude. English is not my native language and I haven’t spoken it with real people for some time now. Plus I cannot convey tone or voice or facial expression.

Well, as a non english forum user who has practiced that language here for more than a year, I’ll tell you that calling people things like stupid or using some mean words like that are something that maybe somepeople could consider rude indeed (and I’m being very very very polite here). I’m okay if you don’t want to convince anyone, that’s fine, but please, don’t turn a simple debate into a fight. Keep it civile.

You will find that I’m actually quite pleasant when people don’t false report me, or try to pull mob justice style tactics against me

Allright… That’s feedback about what?

Oh, and now I’ll tell you bad news. Not a single Blizz’s game is made for the easiest hero to be trash and the hardest heroes to be gods, that would be very silly and unprofessional. Everyone should be more or less the same good as everyone. For example, Heroes of the Storm. Raynor, one star hero. Receantly mandatory, nerfed but still powerful.

You understood what I meant, one clause didn’t throw you off You are getting silly at this point amigo. If you want to we can debate in my native language? Want to?

Still mean, but don’t worry, now I know where are you from, compadre, and I could translate you XDDD. Please, stop trying that thing. You are getting not only stupid but really childish at this point, I don’t know what are you trying to bring here in the first place, I only see unnecessary posts with unnecessary mean language.

Compared to other Mercies yes, not compared to Ana. One has mechanical requirement, the other doesn’t.

Both of them require a lot of mechanical knowledge. Maybe if Mercy hadn’t valk she would require more.

Has nothing to do with my argument.

Tbh, here I must say, yes, it does. Leaving a character at 50% health and start healing another one just because you know that your main priority now is to keep alive that new target takes skill, and it’s not simply holding a button as you need to think bout your targets. Holding M1 would be almost what Soldier or Junkrat can do.

You got that backwards, her kit was super simple to use (mass rez) and now requires some skill to use (single rez).

Eeeehhh… what kind of skill are you talking about? Searching a place to hide? Because that’s the only skill that current rez takes. Mass rez took infinitely more skill than single rez. E rez is just a cancer button that has no place in Mercy’s kit since it only works for fogiving bad game from bad players and it contradicts her main concept as a mobile support because it immobilizes her. NO ONE likes E rez. It must die forever, same as valk. They are the two worst designs in all Ow’s history, as they were in the past. Mercy must go forward through the time (she is reverted back to her alpha state) and see her rez once more as her ult, no matter how, and (here is the biggest change) a new AND REAL E ability.

[Titanium-1686]

@Undertone-2728

Changing my arguments or twisting them doesn’t help you either. Never claimed such a thing.

@Undertone-2728

So holding M1 is something you consider skill.

@Undertone-2728

Because holding M1 isn’t a skill.

@Undertone-2728

Unless you are an absolute mind-mindbogglingly stupid (not you, talking in theory, don’t false report me) holding M1 is going to be consistent 100% of the time.

There’s no twisting arguments here. It seems like you yourself said that.

@Undertone-2728

You understood what I meant, one clause didn’t throw you off You are getting silly at this point amigo. If you want to we can debate in my native language? Want to?

Well, didn’t you say the point of this is to practice your English?

@Undertone-2728

Again, same tactic, you are taking my statements out of contexts because it’s the only way you can break them apart.

@Undertone-2728

So holding M1 is something you consider skill.

@Undertone-2728

Because holding M1 isn’t a skill.

@Undertone-2728

Unless you are an absolute mind-mindbogglingly stupid (not you, talking in theory, don’t false report me) holding M1 is going to be consistent 100% of the time.

@Undertone-2728

Compared to other Mercies yes, not compared to Ana. One has mechanical requirement, the other doesn’t.

@Undertone-2728

Compared to other Mercies yes, not compared to Ana.

Likewise, the same can be said about Ana.

@Undertone-2728

One has mechanical requirement, the other doesn’t.

And how is change things?

@Undertone-2728

Has nothing to do with my argument.

@Undertone-2728

So holding M1 is something you consider skill.

@Undertone-2728

Because holding M1 isn’t a skill.

@Undertone-2728

Unless you are an absolute mind-mindbogglingly stupid (not you, talking in theory, don’t false report me) holding M1 is going to be consistent 100% of the time.

@Undertone-2728

Junkrat and Pharah shoot projectiles,

So apparently weapon classification (hitscan, beam, projectile) determines the difficulty of the weapon now.

@Undertone-2728

Ana is a hitscan

Only when scoped in. Otherwise, it’s a projectile.

@Undertone-2728

Mercy doesn’t have aim requirement for healing.

Actually, there is an aim requirement. It is very forgiving, but you’re never going to get anything done if you can’t flick your beam over to the correct target quickly.

@Undertone-2728

Junkrat and Pharah are not relevant examples.

They are relevant in that they are counterexamples to your assertions.

@Undertone-2728

Cannot simplify my argument more than this alas, sorry.

@Titanium-1686

I mean, if you’re going to pretend you’re simplifying an argument, at least don’t undermine it and the defect to the polar opposite of your previous position. That doesn’t simplify an argument. It just makes it clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.

@Undertone-2728

I haven’t undermined or back-tracked in any way.

Literally see my last 2 posts.

@Undertone-2728

My statement was applied to a specific situation,

And if there are exceptions or fallacies to the “rule” you are proposing, then it isn’t actually a rule.

@Undertone-2728

Travel time my friend, travel time. Same concept with Junkrat.

Projectile velocity, my friend.
Fire rate, my friend.
Weapon trajectory, my friend.

@Undertone-2728

It’s not relevant to my argument either.

If you are asserting that A (less mechanical skill required) will be picked more than B (more mechanical skill required) because A will always be more consistent than B, then there is no reason that the Junkrat vs Pharah example is not relevant. Pharah has a greater mechanical skill requirement than Junkrat, but is simultaneously more consistent than him. Therefore, your assertion cannot be true, as it is flatly contradicted when you try to apply it to different heroes.

@Undertone-2728

You are comparing two heroes which are using projectiles. Literally nothing in common with my comparison

@Titanium-1686

Whether my example is relevant to your example is not important. What is important is that my example is relevant to your argument, which it is.

@Undertone-2728

You got that backwards, her kit was super simple to use (mass rez) and now requires some skill to use (single rez).

See Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State.

[Plarpoon-2445]

and now we wait…

[Undertone-2728]

Soldier is way easier than Mercy,

Hahaha, you take the cake for today

Mercy is even harder in terms of healing than some supports out there,

Hahahaha, x2.

Mercy players are the most patient players in the world since they have been misstreated for more than an entire year and somepeople still comes here to spam and call them names.

No bias whatsoever here.

Both of them require a lot of mechanical knowledge. Maybe if Mercy hadn’t valk she would require more.

Hahahhah, x3.

Mass rez took infinitely more skill than single rez

Hahahha x4.

Thank you for entertaining me.

There’s no twisting arguments here. It seems like you yourself said that.

Yeah, I don’t believe holding M1 is a skill, sure.

Well, didn’t you say the point of this is to practice your English?

So what was the point of the comment then, you understood what I said regardless of the wrong clause.

And how is change things?

Now, now, who has improper grammar usage. Again, if you take away context it doesn’t change things. But if you put the statement in the original context I used it, it makes all the difference in the world.

So apparently weapon classification (hitscan, beam, projectile) determines the difficulty of the weapon now.

You don’t believe that the weapon classification determines the difficulty of it? So you think hitscan and projectile are of the same difficulty? Man, this opens a whoooooole new avenue of how much you don’t understand balace, you realize that right?

Only when scoped in. Otherwise, it’s a projectile.

Correct.

Actually, there is an aim requirement. It is very forgiving, but you’re never going to get anything done if you can’t flick your beam over to the correct target quickly.

If you consider that aim requirement, I really have to question the standards for which you think aiming is done.

They are relevant in that they are counterexamples to your assertions.

No they are not. Again, you are comparing something that has nothing to do with my argument.

at least don’t undermine it and the defect to the polar opposite of your previous position.

Never undermined my argument, never defected to polar opposite. You simply took my statement out of context, applied it as a general statement when it was in reference to a specific argument.

And if there are exceptions or fallacies to the “rule” you are proposing, then it isn’t actually a rule.

There are no fallacies and exceptions to this logic. Your example doesn’t apply. Let me remind you of my original statement:

If support A has no mechanical requirements and has more output than support B who has mechanical requirements, no one will ever pick that support because it makes no sense. Support A will be consistent a 100% of the time when compared to support B (since no mechanical requirement), so naturally picking support A will provide more utility since there are no variables (like hitting shots). This is irrefutable logic and argument. You cannot refute this statement. And giving example of two projectile heroes have nothing to do with this statement. This is a strawman.

Projectile velocity

Indeed, allejulah. Pharah’s rockets hit where she shoots but the enemy doesn’t stay where she shoots. With me?

If you are asserting that A (less mechanical skill required) will be picked more than B (more mechanical skill required) because A will always be more consistent than B, then there is no reason that the Junkrat vs Pharah example is not relevant. Pharah has a greater mechanical skill requirement than Junkrat, but is simultaneously more consistent than him. Therefore, your assertion cannot be true, as it is flatly contradicted when you try to apply it to different heroes.

This is a false assertion because Junkrat still requires some mechanical skill. It’s not a case of no-mechanical skill. There’s still a variable present.

[Lithy-2614]

Nice spam post with zero feedback from nothing. You proved all my points correct by not being able to bring any type of real counterargument XDDDD. Please, stop using fallacies and lying about absolutely everything. Even Seagull has admitted that valk and E rez make Mercy easier to play and he has admitted that he prefers mass rez because it was not so horrible. Every single pro Mercy has said the same. E rez is annoying. Valk is annoying. At this point, you are only showing an incredible lack of maturity, an incredible bias and if you think you are bothering us, I must say I only feel pity for you and foreign embarassment.

Now, I’ll answer only the points where I consider that you try a real argument and not just childish laughs or pointless chit-chat.

You don’t believe that the weapon classification determines the difficulty of it? So you think hitscan and projectile are of the same difficulty? Man, this opens a whoooooole new avenue of how much you don’t understand balace, you realize that right?

This is not a real argument but okay… so you are telling a GM who has been recognized even by EeveeA that he doesn’t know about the game? Allright… you won the cake this millenium.

Yeah, I don’t believe holding M1 is a skill, sure.

Well, then you are mindblowingly clueless about how this game works. Fyi, Moira, Sym, and Winston work by holding M1, and Lucio works just by being there. Junkrat is simply spamming M1 from behind the walls, Soldier is simply pew pew pew, and the list goes on.

You don’t believe that the weapon classification determines the difficulty of it? So you think hitscan and projectile are of the same difficulty? Man, this opens a whoooooole new avenue of how much you don’t understand balace, you realize that right?

Winston: no aimed weapon. Harder than Junkrat and Soldier, whose weapons launches projectiles. Lucio: just needs to be there for doing his job, not weapon required. Harder than Mercy, who needs to choose her weapon and point her target.

If support A has no mechanical requirements and has more output than support B who has mechanical requirements, no one will ever pick that support because it makes no sense. Support A will be consistent a 100% of the time when compared to support B (since no mechanical requirement), so naturally picking support A will provide more utility since there are no variables (like hitting shots). This is irrefutable logic and argument. You cannot refute this statement. And giving example of two projectile heroes have nothing to do with this statement. This is a strawman.

Your point fails as soon as we notice that Mercy really has (or at least had when she hadn’t valk) some mechanical requirements. Why Ana was picked before way more over Mercy for two entire seasons? She outperformed her in everything but mobility (irrelevant if she can’t do her job) and her ult (irrelevant if everything else is failing). She was better as a burst support and even as a consistent support because Mercy’s 50 hp/s healing were real trash in comparison. Now that that has been reverted too (exactly the same as her ult and her rez) Ana outperforms her once more in everything but irrelevant things because they can’t make up her lack of quality healing.

About debunking your argument, I think people like me and many others have already done it.

This is a false assertion because Junkrat still requires some mechanical skill. It’s not a case of no-mechanical skill. There’s still a variable present.

Junkrat can spam his M1 even from behind a wall or a corner, requiring no LoS and being by far the easiest hero (excepting Mercy during valk) of the game. I was a flex Soldier, Junkrat, Mercy and Rein player and I can say that Junkrat is the easiest thing to play. Yes, he has some tricks if you want to master him, but that’s all. Soldier is boringly easy to play. I found pre rework Mercy harder than both of them and more fun than Soldier, as I could choose my function while playing (Junkrat was more fun but just because he is more relaxing and forgiving). Healer? Okay. Boost support? Fine. Dps? Just for a while, there should be better things to do.

[Undertone-2728]

Nice spam post with zero feedback from nothing.

I mean your statements are so blatantly wrong, it’s like debating a Flat Earther.

1. Soldier is easier than Mercy - flat out wrong.
2. Mercy harder than other supports - flat out wrong.
3. Mercy requires mechanical skill like Ana - flat out wrong.
4. Mass Rez requires more skill than single rez - flat out wrong.

I mean these statements are so fundamentally wrong, they are literally like claiming the Earth is flat. There’s so much overwhelming evidence that you are wrong I literally cannot take you seriously.

[RevertMercy-1304]

1. Soldier is easier than Mercy - flat out wrong.
2. Mercy harder than other supports - flat out wrong.
3. Mercy requires mechanical skill like Ana - flat out wrong.
4. Mass Rez requires more skill than single rez - flat out wrong.

5. “Mechanically-skilled heroes outperform non-mechanically skilled heroes.” - Flat out wrong.

~Sincerely Yours xoxo,
a Lover of True, Fair, and Fun Balance.
xavvypls

[Undertone-2728]

Heh, nice try

[Arcalias-2773]

flat out wrong.

flat out wrong.

flat out wrong.

flat out wrong.

There’s so much overwhelming evidence that you are wrong I literally cannot take you seriously.

If there so much evidence that shows these statements wrong, I guess i would be such an easy job for you to prove them wrong.

All you keep doing is laughing at people and refuting people’s arguments with… literally nothing more than “it’s wrong”.
You know, it’s not how a discussion works. You need to discuss the points made by your opposition and bring counterarguments, examples, statistics,… to refute said points.

Let’s take your example

If support A has no mechanical requirements and has more output than support B who has mechanical requirements, no one will ever pick that support because it makes no sense. Support A will be consistent a 100% of the time when compared to support B (since no mechanical requirement), so naturally picking support A will provide more utility since there are no variables (like hitting shots).

I have a problem with this specific part:

Support A will be consistent a 100% of the time when compared to support B (since no mechanical requirement)

You are implying here that mechanical requirement -or skill, whatever- are somehow linked to consistency, as you say that A is more consistent because of its lack of mechanical skill.
A few post later, you affirm this

Never said skill = consistency.

And now your initial argument falls appart.
If skill =/= consistency, then character A isn’t more consistent than character B.

This is irrefutable logic and argument. You cannot refute this statement.

I just did it in like… 5 min ?

[Lithy-2614]

Soldier is easier than Mercy - flat out wrong.

Currently not thanks to valk and E rez. Before, yes, he was. Anyway, before the revert (call it rework if you want, why not) somepeople could find him easier, but it seems you don’t realise about the fact that each person is different to the rest, so…

Mercy harder than other supports - flat out wrong.

Never said that. Mercy is indeed a one star support, but her healing mechanic is harder than other supports. Currently Lucio is harder than Mercy for example because he must engage with his team while using amp it up (which heals only 3 hp/s less than valk and during less time, so he must time it properly). However, Mercy now can just press Q and hide behind a cloud or a wall. Also, her E rez takes no skill at all but searching a place to hide. Anyway, there is a lot of discussion about Mercy vs Moira, but I won’t discuss about that.

Mercy requires mechanical skill like Ana - flat out wrong.

They don’t take the same, but they both take some of it. Saying that Mercy takes no mechanical skill is flat out wrong too.

Mass Rez requires more skill than single rez - flat out wrong.

Sooooo biased there xDDDDD. Zero proofs, zero arguments… nothing but just a flat out wrong statement. Well… here I go. Let’s compare them.

Current rez:
1- MANDATORY STEP. EVERYTHING ELSE RELIES ON THIS STEP: Can I hide for my rez? If the answer is yes, then go ahead with the list. If the answer is no, then…
1.A- Can my team babysit me? If the answer is yes, then try it. If the answer is no, then…
1.B- Is my teammate so bad positioned that I can go and rez him with zero risks? If the answer is yes, then go ahead. If the answer is no, then…
1.C- Don’t even think about it.
2- Teammate’s importance: Easy ranks: main tank > tank => another support => dps with massive destruction ult > dps.
3- Wait 30 seconds for the next stupid mistake.

Mass rez:
1- How dramatic the situation is? How many teammates are dead? What team is winning the fight? Does the situation really require your ult?
2- What’s the importance of each character you are going to rez? Easy ranks + complex ranks. Main tank or support + dps? 2 dpss + tank or support + dps with ult ready?
3- Own positioning and teammate’s positioning. Are they too splitted, so if you rez them they will die one by one after you wasting your ult? Can you reach one more teammate or it’s good enough like this?
4- Everyone’s resources. Does the enemy has ults? Will your team die easily after your rez?
5- Game awareness. Is that fight so important that you really need to use your rez? Or you will just waste it? Can your team win without it?
6- Survivality. Are you under pressure? Will you survive until your best possible rez? Or you must use it now despite it couldn’t be the best rez possible?

So yes, 3 of your statements are taking words from my mouth or conveniently twisting my arguments, and the last one is like claiming that the Earth is flat. As you said, there is so much overwhelming evidence that you are wrong in that last one that no one could take you seriously. You are trying even to contradict all the pros of the game, and that’s laughable.

[Undertone-2728]

If there so much evidence that shows these statements wrong, I guess i would be such an easy job for you to prove them wrong.

Sure thing snookums, just don’t expect an essay.

1. Soldier requires mechanical skill to play. Mercy requires no mechanical skill to play.
2. Mercy has more survivability than Zen and requires no aim. Requires less positioning to heal than Lucio, doesn’t need to combo like Brigitte to be effective, has more mobility than Moira and requires no resource tracking, easier to play than Ana, do we count Symmetra in this still?
3. Mercy requires mechanical skill like Ana - where? How? Do you consider holding M1 mechanical skill?
4. Mass Rez required the player to go in and press Q - literally almost uncounterable. Single rez requires Mercy to be stationary, needs situational awareness, game sense, coordination and decision making. It’s also counterable and interruptible.

Easy-peasy. I mean I’m actually surprised you wanted this, I mean those are statements are so fundamentally wrong, it’s like asking me to prove the Sky is blue.

All you keep doing is laughing at people and refuting people’s arguments with… literally nothing more than “it’s wrong”.

Oh I provide plenty of arguments. You just choose to ignore them or break them down and take them out of context to fit whatever narrative you want.

A few post later, you affirm this

AGAIN, taken out of context. I’m specifically referring to Mercy with this point. Holding M1 isn’t a skill and therefore skill =/= consistency.

And now your initial argument falls appart.

No, because I never claim this as a general statement. I claim this in so far as Mercy - holding M1 is not a skill and is 100% consistent. Skill applies to Ana because she requires mechanical skill, the more mechanical skill she has, the more consistency she has.

[iTANK-11122]

INB4 Non-Mercy’s come at me saying I’m an ignorant cultist and I don’t have an opinion.

I mean I actually was going to post some genuine thoughts, buuuuut…
LEFTIST SJW CULTIST YOUR WORDS MEAN NOTHING REEEEEEEEEE

[Lithy-2614]

Soldier requires mechanical skill to play. Mercy requires no mechanical skill to play.

Straigh false. Both require mechanical skill to play. Mercy required to prioritise targets and use her abilities at the exact time. Soldier can spam them all and has not the pressure of being the enemy’s focus unless he is playing stupid.

Mercy has more survivability than Zen and requires no aim. Requires less positioning to heal than Lucio, doesn’t need to combo like Brigitte to be effective, has more mobility than Moira and requires no resource tracking, easier to play than Ana, do we count Symmetra in this still?

That’s somewhat correct thanks to the revert. Before it was different, she had to track all the resources of the battlefield. Zen’s healing orb doesn’t really need aim neither. Lucio must only worry about being there and survive, that’s all. Mercy needed her teammates for being mobile, unlike now that she can go afk behind the clouds with ez mode valk. No, we don’t count Sym, she never was a real support.

Oh I provide plenty of arguments. You just choose to ignore them or break them down and take them out of context to fit whatever narrative you want.

You are bringing false arguments that people are systematically debunking telling you that everyone in this game, from bronze to even the pros are saying the opposite. However, you choose to twist everything and laugh at everyone who dares to oppose you because… yes. I’m sorry, but you are wrong, the Earth is not flat. This was proved long ago, it’s time to move on. Same about Mercy. Valk was proved bad design long ago (indeed during game’s development), stationary rez was proved bad design long ago (alpha/beta) and trash 50 hp/s healing was proved bad idea long ago (seasons 2-3 specially) because if you have a character whose only input is that he can moves fast but he is mediocre in everything else, people will choose any other character who can do his job properly. Being mediocre in your own job is not how you balance anything in this world. Even in real live, if you are mediocre at work, the boss will choose other people to be raised instead of you. Why? Because even if they have some restrictions, they at least exceel in what they are doing. Mercy exceels in nothing relevant to her team. Moving fast? Okay, that helps her, but her team? Nope, so you’d better pick Ana or any other support because they at least can do their work more efficiently than her.

[Medic-12448]

At least you get a great view!

Of your teammates deaths

[Arcalias-2773]

Soldier requires mechanical skill to play.

You’re not even explaining. “X = Y, because I just said so.”
That’s not what I call arguing. If you’re not even trying I can not really help you.

I didn’t think it would be that hard, let me show you how to support a claim.

Soldier’s main gameplay is moving around and pew pew-ing.
What are the skills involed ?

• Positioning
  Could be argued to be a basic skill as it is needed for every hero.
• Aim
  This one is pretty self-explanatory I guess. If you can’t hit your targets, you’re not beeing useful in any way.
• Cooldown managements
  This is a secondary skill I think, as it is not the most important one. However, knowing when it is best to use biotic heal, or helix rockets, can make the difference between a kill secured and a kill missed.
• General knowlegde
  Secondary-level skill again, but still. What I mean here is beeing able to know when to push, when to retreat, when to pop your ult, etc…

That’s what I got. If anyone find something else, feel free to correct me as I do not play Soldier a lot and might have missed something.

Moving on to Mercy.

Mercy requires no mechanical skill to play.

Where does this come from ?
The holy book of Overwatch stereotypes ?

As a side note, I’d want to say that mechanical skill doesn’t dictate how easy a character is to play. We were discussing the difficulty of a hero to be played, and you came in to say “Mechanical skill !”, which shows your bias to begin with.

Anyway, back to Mercy

• Positionning
  One of the most important if not the most important skill involved when playing Mercy. As a support, Mercy is #1 priority to find and kill. She’s the character everyone know they need to do everything they can to kill her.
  As she cannot fight back (or rather is not supposed to) when she’s attacked, Mercy’s positionning must be meticulous, as one step forward can sometimes expose you to a bigger danger than you may think.
• Aim
  As you are probably expecting, this isn’t the main skill needed to play Mercy. However, sometimes you happen to be cornered and have no other choice than to draw your pistol and go for the 1v1. Having good aiming skills can more often than you think make a difference between an alive and a dead Mercy.
• Juggling beams
  Another of the main skills required. As healing a full health teammate is useless, it is important to know who to heal, and when to heal. By knowing this you are preventing a lot of deaths rather than someone who would be “holding M1” as you claim Mercy players do. A good target prioritisation is what makes the difference between a good, an average and a bad Mercy.
• GA management
  This one goes in extention to the positionning, but instead of left right forward backward, GA allows to follow very different trajectories to reach a position it would not be possible to get in otherwise.
  Also Mercy’s primary means of mobility, which means it is her only mean of self-defense. Knowing who you can fly to, when and how to bunnyhop is definitely at the core of Mercy’s gameplay.

Mercy has more survivability than Zen and requires no aim.

Mercy has no means of self-defense, while Zen can just burst down a flanker.

Requires less positioning to heal than Lucio

I disgree. Lucio needs to be there to heal, while Mercy has to attach her beam to her target, which can put her in dangerous positions. Also, Mercy is a single healing character, and Lucio can heal multiple targets at once.

has more mobility than Moira and requires no resource tracking.

Alright. Moira needs to manage her ressource meter. However, she heals at a faster rate, which can be considered to be more forgiving therefore easier.
Also, Mercy may have her mobility tool disponible more often than Moira’s, but GA is certainly not a better mobility option than fade.

doesn’t need to combo like Brigitte to be effective

I mean, is Briggite’s combo even relevant at this point ? They’re so different characters.
How does Briggite heal a teammate ? By existing and pressing a button. She has that shield and gives armor. Mercy is, again, defenseless most of the time.

easier to play than Ana

Mercy requires mechanical skill like Ana - where? How?

You asked for it.
[Citation needed]

Mass Rez required the player to go in and press Q

As any ultimate in the game. What are you even trying to say here ?

literally almost uncounterable.

I find this funny.
What is something almost uncounterable ?
If a counter exists, the ability is counterable.
If no counter exist, the ability is uncounterable.
There’s no middle-ground or subjectivity here.

And mass rez fell in the counterable category.

If Mercy is hiding, she is letting her team in a 6v5 situation. A situation you can win without using all of your ults.

Whenever Mercy resurects her team, her allies become very visible and immobile during 2.25s. Most of the time they are either all grouped up in a very small area (after a Zarya ult for example) or they are all spread up. They have bad positioning because you had time to take control of the area.
You have the advantage of being the first to shoot.
While they are invulnerable, you have the time to

• Setup the best D.Va ult you have ever seen
• Tell your Reaper to prepare spinning
• Launch your graviton surge to instantly shut down some (if not all) of them
• Ask your favorite cowboy to tell them what time it is
• Use Mei’s Blizzard
• Prepare to release your EMP
• Meteor strike them all
• RIP-Tire in their face
• Blink blink blink recall, then blink again and finally stick your bomb to someone
• Start raining the justice from above
• Prepare to earthshatter them all
• If you don’t have any of the precedent options available, you can still put their head in the center of your screen, and left click

It’s also counterable and interruptible.

I mean Mercy’s like screaming “SHOT ME” when she rezes and is glowing like the sun. If you need all of this to find the ability counterable, I find this pitiful honestly.

Oh I provide plenty of arguments. You just choose to ignore them or break them down and take them out of context to fit whatever narrative you want.

Where ? How ? Do you consider saying “this is wrong” an argument.

More seriously.
I’m sorry, were those arguments hiden behind something ?
Because I’ve read this entire thread, yet I remember no argument coming from you.

No, because I never claim this as a general statement. I claim this in so far as Mercy

Coming back to the original quote:

If support A has no mechanical requirements and has more output than support B who has mechanical requirements, no one will ever pick that support because it makes no sense. Support A will be consistent a 100% of the time when compared to support B (since no mechanical requirement), so naturally picking support A will provide more utility since there are no variables (like hitting shots).

Where do you mention Mercy ?
Where did you ever say this was only applying to Mercy ?
Why are you twisting your own words to cover up for you lack of argumentation ?
The general wording of this entire paragraph -using letters instead of names which imply a general rule- do not indicate that this only applies to Mercy. If you wanted us to understand this, you should have worded it differently and clearly said that it was only about Mercy.

mechanical skill

mechanical skill

mechanical skill

mechanical skill

Man you look really obsessed with what you consider to be the only valuable skill.

[Undertone-2728]

Straigh false. Both require mechanical skill to play. Mercy required to prioritise targets and use her abilities at the exact time. Soldier can spam them all and has not the pressure of being the enemy’s focus unless he is playing stupid.

You are delusional or you don’t understand the game or the term mechanical skill.

Mercy required to prioritise targets and use her abilities at the exact time.

This is not mechanical skill. I suggest you google the term because you don’t understand what you are talking about.

efore it was different, she had to track all the resources of the battlefield

What resources man? Stop making stuff up.

Zen’s healing orb doesn’t really need aim neither.

Zen himself has to aim to be effective. What kind of nonsense argument is that.

You are bringing false arguments that people are systematically debunking telling you that everyone in this game, from bronze to even the pros are saying the opposite.

What exactly is being said that’s opposite? Mercy has been the be-all end-all support for now 11 seasons, the most consistent best single-target solo healer in the game. Easiest hero to play from the supports and likely easiest hero in the game. Bringing utility above all other supports up until this point. Majorly played among by 85% of the OW population. Not played by 15% of the population only for a season or two before becoming an absolute must-pick for an year.

You are literally making stuff up as you go and you are flat out wrong on virtually everything you say. You are also a star two bronze border private profile player so I sincerely doubt you were even there for original Mercy and consequent reworks.

Please stop talking nonsense, you are making a fool out of yourself for anyone that understands this game on a basic level. Saying that a hitscan DPS is easier than Mercy is just laughably wrong.

That’s not what I call arguing. If you’re not even trying I can not really help you.

These statements are so blatantly wrong that I don’t even need to try to refute them.

Soldier’s main gameplay is moving around and pew pew-ing.
What are the skills involed ?

I mean no offense but you are also a two star bronze border silver competitive Mercy one-trick. This isn’t rank shaming before you start false-reporting me. It’s an objective point if you are going to discuss balance and game sense. I sincerely doubt your ability and your understanding and knowledge of the game if you are in silver. Seriously… if soldier is just pew-pew to you than no comment mate.

Where does this come from ?
The holy book of Overwatch stereotypes ?

Do you understand what mechanical skill is? If you don’t, look it up. Mercy requires no mechanical skill to play - this isn’t a holy book or stereotype, this is a simple observable fact. I mean come on man, you guys are getting ridiculous.

Mercy has no means of self-defense, while Zen can just burst down a flanker.

It’s literally the opposite. Zen is weak to flankers, Mercy is strong against flankers because of mobility.

You asked for it.
[Citation needed]

Stop with the citation memes, it makes you guys look silly. Simple answer is Mercy requires no mechanical aim of any kind.

I find this funny.
What is something almost uncounterable ?
If a counter exists, the ability is counterable.
If no counter exist, the ability is uncounterable.
There’s no middle-ground or subjectivity here.

What do you find almost funny? Mass rez was literally almost uncounterable unless you had a lightning fast Widowmaker who could somehow one-shot Mercy before the player pressing Q which was so unrealistically unlikely you could almost say it was uncounterable. Not to mention, Mercy didn’t even need LoS for rez. So stop making stuff up, with those 2 stars I wonder if you were even there when Mercy had Mass Rez.

Because I’ve read this entire thread, yet I remember no argument coming from you.

You don’t understand the game so I doubt you can understand my arguments.

Man you look really obsessed with what you consider to be the only valuable skill.

It’s not the only skill in the game but it’s definitely a valuable skill to have.

All in all, please before you comment on balance or design, make sure you actually understand basic definitions. Get more experience in the game and get out of silver. This isn’t rank shaming you, don’t false report me. If you are in silver however this means you don’t understand fundamental basic principles about this game and both of you are saying things that are flat out wrong.