You’ve said this but most people I’ve seen talk about this, streamers pros etc don’t seem to agree with you. Your opinion is more in line with what I’ve heard low ranked players say.
According to several high ranked players, support is the most influential role. Not oppressive exactly, but the highest impact.
Theres no way, alot of the high lvl players i follow play tank like (Zbra,Flats,Emongg,Samito…etc) and ive only ever heard they say tanks are really strong.
And again, i play alot of tank, i flex alot, i can see how alot of the time a game is won because of tank-diff, way more than the other roles.
Not true imo, support is the second most influential per player, they might be the most influential as a role but thats much harder to get to since its between 2 players, but as a player they are not.
The way i see it, tanks (the OP ones) are about 35% of ur team, both Dps are 15% each and both supps are 17.5% each putting the overral role strenght at 35 (supp) 35 (tank) 30 (Dps) and thats pretty obvious considering tanks counter DPS but help Support the most.
IMO Tanks (the op ones) are as good as both of ur supports in one player, let that sink in.
Ofc it varies from composition/map and all of that but thats the average statistics i have in mind.
(It might also be 40 (tank), 14/14 (dps), 16/16 (supp) on ladder btw because of the random solo q nature of the game, favoring the solo oriented role the most, wich counters DPS and buffs supp, also cuz ur Solo tank can throw the hardest by not picking the OP ones)
The right one imo should be closer to 32 (tank) 17/17 (dps) 17/17 (supp) , achievable by nerfing the OP tanks/dps (while buffing some of the bad ones) and buffing the support’s survivability while nerfing some other part of their kit i think.
That would make Tanks the weakest role but it cant possibly be good for any game having ONE player be better (by alot) than 2 of its peers, not possible.
And its like by ~1%, they would have the same impact as the DPS role has right now wich is still a healthy amount.
Edit: Quick maffs.
I’ve definitely heard Flats talk about supports being the carry role in OW2 and that he felt Zarya and D.Va needed a nerf but that Doom & JQ needed buffs. He did not think anything had to happen with Winston. And I haven’t heard Emongg or Samito say that Winston needed a nerf.
I don’t care about per player. I care about per role. And you should too. With only 1 tank in the game, that tank would have to be as strong as 2 tanks in OW1 to still be as impactful. And that just isn’t the case. A single tank is strong, but they aren’t as strong as 2 old tanks. If you only had 1 support, you’d need to make that 1 support OP compared to current supports too. You can’t balance tanks as if there were still 2 of them. It can’t work that way.
Not true. The support role is still the most important one. The community hasn’t understood this yet, but supports are the key to this game now.
I’ve been a tank main for the last 6 years. I also flex a lot. I’ll take my experience over yours. But our opinions are so very far apart that we won’t agree. So, this conversation is a bit pointless. I think you are wrong about just about everything and I’m sure you think the same about me. So, let’s stop this ridiculous back and forth.
You should care about per player too, it becomes way too spiked at some point wich it is rn i think,
But most importantly, u’re falling into the trap that tanks are supposed to be as strong as 2 tanks like before wich is not true at all with 1 less player theres 1 less VERY important player of damage/impact that needs stopped, theres no way a tank should be as impactful as 2 tanks, not a single way.
They need to be less dependant on an off/main tank by design and ~1.5x stronger than an OW1 tank.
We would have to agree to disagree there, but time will tell.
Also the support role is very much carried by the fact tanks give them space to do their job, so its all correlated.
I for one think this conversation is not ridiculous at all though, when it comes to the games whole balance, there needs to be a consensus and understanding on where the roles stand, dont u think?
Are our opinions really that far apart, where do u think the roles stand atm, like in terms of how i put it?
No, not exactly. Somewhere about 1.5 times as strong, maybe slightly above that but not 2x or less than 1.5x. I’d say that they’re in general about right now on the whole with a couple needing buffs and a couple needing nerfs, but not huge for either honestly.
When I say ridiculous, what I’m getting at is that you aren’t persuading me and clearly I’m not persuading you either. If we aren’t going to agree, at some point it becomes futile.
I think that our opinions are pretty far apart because I think that the role is mostly in a good spot. I think that the nerfs the devs planned are perfect. Being a D.Va main myself, I of course would prefer they didn’t, but the nerfs are fair.
I wouldn’t nerf Sigma or Winston. I would buff Junker Queen (but not her shout). And I’d buff Doomfist, but I’d be careful doing so because he can be really annoying to play against if he gets too good. I think I’d also give Ball a reduced cooldown on grapple when leaving spawn. He needs a little something, but not much. You can’t really do much to ball. And I would at least consider giving Rein 300 damage on charge again. Not sure if that’s the right move, but Tokyo drift Rein is fun. But he needs to kill Reaper & Mei like other Squishies.
See, you’re basically agreeing with me, the nerfs i have in mind are also not that huge either,
You see, we are persuading eachother, i think i changed a good 2% ish on each role while talking to you.
I dont think they are too far apart either, changing a good 5% (10% on ladder) overral on all roles is really not that much.
The only issue, is that you’re a little tank biased while i’m more of a flex player.
You see, these buffs of urs are literally on the same vein on alot of my ideas.
You just havent quite gotten to the point you see Winston and Sigma being dominant yet, the current OWL playoffs are showing alot of Winston.
Ive since changed my opinion on some of these it was very early, i also think Rein’s pin need extra dmg, 50 in fact on the PIN’s start , its very weird to me that Rein’s Pinned target takes no dmg on the pin while his booped targets do, Instead of the extra firestrike dmg.
I think Doom’s CC invuln should be 1s and overral dmg reduction 70% instead of 60% while keeping its parry at 100% and Meteor Strike should deal an extra 50 dmg on outer circle too.
I would also prefer if Carnage was faster instead of less cooldown cuz it helps her flow a bit better, so you could shoot> carnage > shoot more often.
And i agree with your Ball suggestion.
The big difference is I think they’re already there and don’t need nerfs.
I’m definitely a tank main and I know tanks better than the other roles, but I play a ton of support too. Kiriko is my most played hero since OW2 came out.
And I won’t. I don’t believe in changing that many heroes in a single balance patch. We need to see how these changes shake up the meta. And I think even if they dominate that the next changes should be buffs to JQ and Doom. Only 4 weeks into season 2 would I consider touching anyone else.
Welp there we disagree.
Ya need to play a bit of the other roles too i think to get more perspective on how tanks are a little off, always have been.
Well, OWL is showing rn that Winston is ridiculously OP, whoda thought…
I always thought D.va was only ever slightly better than him on the ladder, actually very close in pro play, and it shows i think, tiny nerf to her and boom, Monke all around.
Maybe he needs a bigger nerf…
But that is my point other heroes are holding him back so why are you assuming the opposite isnt true with d.va considering Genji a dive hero and sombra who is also dive and is probably easiest to find as d.va from the tank category arent proping her up?
No I dont because I dont think alot of the issues are actually tank based other than Zarya and even then I think its a little overblown. I think alot of the issues are more complicated and are multiclass issues or inhert flaws with 5 vs 5. Which if you couldnt tell I belive is flawed as a concept for overwatch.
Metas are not actually the most efficent tactics avaliable they are actually what people precive is the most efficent tactic avalible. There is a distinct and important diffrence.
People might have a ton of success on a objectively mid tier strategy. And if enough people see your success it can cause people to assume that is the meta. People tend to adapt the if aint broke dont fix it mindset and tend to assume the first thing that is successful is the best. Afterall you are winning why change? Also people tend to forget that just because you are winning doesnt mean other comps wouldnt win even harder. Which is why I always say just because a charcter looks good doesnt mean they actually are.
Plus an even bigger reason I hate these changes is we all know that heroes like doomfist , Junkerqueen and Hog are needing their own kit fixed for health of the game reasons. They are by far there own worst enemies rather than any other tank. So nerfing the competition in addition is a recepie for bad news.
Because Winston is actually better into those two while D.va is better into high-damage D.Mable characters, so the opposite isnt true, D.va is so adaptable that she has no hard counters and actually is the one countering things the most.
And before you say Zarya, no, Zarya is at best a soft counter and is just really OP is the problem.
Genji can easily deflect alot of dmg on D.va and blade isnt really D.M’able, plus he can run away from D.va easier than Winston, and obviously cant deflect Winstons dmg.
Sombra is much more annoying to D.va than Winston because Winston’s value come from 2 easily deployable cooldowns with burst value that Sombra cant really stop easily, like she does with D.va, spychecking capabiltieis on both of them are abot as good and is not really a reliable way to counter Sombra.
I’m not really just assuming anything that ive put here.
Now tell me, what changed the most going to 5v5?
Was it not the tank role going from 2 to 1? how is it NOT a tank issue?
Yes, we are people that perceive things, i at least assumed that you already knew that.
But we perceive that people have more success on the META strategies, its why we use them, its that simple really.
Thats why we change things based on their less problematic parts of their kits, we change anything other than Queen’s shout, we change Doom’s horrible block ability/ult we rework Hog into an actual tank character.
Just because something is the best option doesn’t necessarily mean it’s OP. It could mean that something else needs a change.
If either D.Va or Junker Queen were better then Winston wouldn’t be.
In this case, and because i believe tanks are OP in general, yes, i think it is because of that, highly so, Winston needs nerfs for a while now and they just dont do it.
How about they just nerf Winston and D.va a bit more (since she rises when he falls)?
Buffing a bit of Queen tho i can see it.
This is brings in a lot of other hidden factors in why I think the d.va nerf is a mistake when it comes to high level play. For starter not every high level match has the same meaning and being able to hide strategies is a real thing. Second the desire to find the next big thing before the opponents make it a competive advantage to want a hero nerfed. I.e your teams tank player and as a team practiced has more success on another hero you will want edges to that and use “balance” as a pretext to gain that edge and advocate nerfs to opposing strategies. And the last issue I am going to mention is they can simply be wrong and underestimate heroes. It happens all the time where personal elitism or biases make high level players underrate heroes outside their box only to be detroyed by the hero they are calling worse off.
No what that is in actuality is looking only at the result and nothing more. Again if you win a match as a hero doesnt in any shape or form mean you would not have won even cleaner on another hero. Why do you think Winston is doing so well right now in owl? Its almost as if its because dive is whats good right now and the meta isnt run by tanks shocking I know. And yes he is heavily underestimated right now pre nerf too imo.
I would even argue that it doesnt mean that balance changes are necessary. Just get people to be stop being so narrow minded and people will realize alot of there preconceptions are wrong
Because that has worked so well in the past 5 years or so (it hasn’t).
Blizzard made a blog post explaining she’s top 4, behind Zarya, Rein and Sigma.
They just need to nerf him, then (maybe) nerf D.va again cuz shes gonna be looking better when hes nerfed.
He is so good, nerf him.
You’re reading way too far into the most random player bias details, its not that complicated.
Results are the most important thing when looking at how strong something is, i’m sorry, it isnt when choosing how to balance it, but it definetly is when looking at what needs it.
Metas have ALWAYS been dictated by tanks/supps, they still are, what dictates a “Dive comp” if not a Winston or a D.va?
They are right now for sure.
Counter point, Brigitte and Mercy 2.0.
Horrible blog post, with overral horrible data usage i believe, Rein is widely considered one of the weakest tanks in the game, whatever they were looking at is way too Bronze related, like they always do.
Because never ending nerf trains on the symptomps of an issue is not how you solve issues. You can do 100000000000 nerfs on a hero but if you dont understand that issue is elsewhere there problem will never die. Just like the goats meta never died because they kept attacking the symptoms rather than the real issue.
All the 1000000 nerfs will do is piss off people and create a new issue. Which is why you need to look deeper than just blaming a top picked hero
GOATS was created because they did not nerf Dive/tanks/supps in general and introduced the most ridiculous thing in the game called Brigitte almost single handedly killed the game, for the same reason i’m advocating here, stubbornly refusing to nerf the right things.
Tanks and dive in general.
The same thing, history repeats itself, nerf what is overly opressive, how hard is that!?
Brig was made to break Dive which only really existed at higher tiers and OWL. Tracer wasn’t as big an issue in Gold.
Mercy 2.0 was made because she was useless in higher tiers. That went well.
makes a claim
gets proven wrong
“I don’t like your proof.”
Every time man. 
Exactly, balancing for the GOLD tier, almost killed their game, you just agreed with me.
Wow, the second most dumb change in the game, leaving Mercy in a limbo for ever since, went well, yep.
Simply putting a simple pickrate across all ranks proves NOTHING.
(in terms of whats strong in the game, where it matters that is)
Ok let me put it this way. The way you are looking at the data is so narrow minded (and I actually litterally mean narrow here as you are looking at the actual most filtered data and not considering the filters which matter alot more) and not looking at the stuff that caused the data to end up as it is as the moment. Looking at what tou are advocating is what results in the bad whack a mole balance this game is famous for.
And no dive is a teamstyle not a tank thing. Dps are way more involded in balance stuff than you are giving them credit for