Here’s the thing… I’m not.
If you damage boost somebody who misses every shot they take… congrats, you wasted your time. If you discord somebody and your team misses every shot on them, as long as you manage to hit your shots on them, discord wasn’t wasted. That’s the difference.
Mercy’s value drops to near zero on a bad team. Almost no other support’s does.
Yea that’s an event being measured after an event vs one that isn’t again. (if zen misses or you get headshot it’s wasted)
If you boost a target, even if bad you’ll increase the chance of winning.
Like with Zen if you discord and shoot a target you’ll increase a chance of winning.
If you have a team so bad you can’t have an impact. No support and fix this and you’re over exaggerating the impact of other supports.
Yet people constantly use total healing through round as measure of balance.
If target doesn’t hit their shots, boost doesn’t do anything.
Difference is that with Zen, worst case scenario still has some value, as you yourself make use of discord. While with Mercy, worst case scenario has zero value.
And that’s if we leave rest of kit out of picture - Zen can use multiple parts of his kit at the same time, so he can gain near constantly value by diversifying.
How are you seriously not getting the point I’m trying to make? Sure, if everybody misses the Discord target, Discord hasn’t helped.
But here’s the deal, Zenyatta doesn’t completely rely on his teammates for Discord to get value. Why? He can shoot it himself. Mercy cannot do that. She cannot boost herself. That’s just how the ability works. And despite your assertion to the contrary, Boost ceases to make any sort of difference if the receiver of the boost either doesn’t shoot or misses.
She is far more team dependent in this area than Zenyatta is. In all honesty, with the exception of keeping herself alive, she is far too team dependent in general. All supports will be to some extent, but Mercy takes it too far.
I’m really not though. A sleep dart landed on an ulting enemy can straight up save your team. Same with Zen Discord double tap. Same with Baptiste’s Lamp.
Most supports also can do multiple things at once. Which allows them to diversify their value and ensure, that they will get value, one way or another.
For example, you gave harmony orb to your teammate and discorded enemy, while shooting said enemy. So, you have 3 ways of gaining value active at the same time - healing, discord, and shooting. To have no value, all 3 have to fail.
I get the point. In a out of context void you’d be right. In a team game Zens damage and discord will only get value with a team.
I also understand the point you are dependant on others to get value. That said that doesn’t mean if you damage boost or heal and lose it doesn’t mean you didn’t have value.
Sure, if you wanna cherry-pick. I dash away from genji to stop him from getting a dash reset and rez the one kill he had and carry the game. Who cares it’s not relevant can mercy compete and be played at all level of the game yes.
If as result of your intervention teammate didn’t get that kill, you didn’t get value.
It’s not about winning or losing game as whole - it’s about making difference in engagements you interfere with. Which Zen is more likely to do successfully, as one makes difference in 3 different ways at the same time, while Mercy has only 1 active at any moment.
It does however mean you didn’t have enough value. Which is Mercy’s problem. She doesn’t have many opportunities to get massive value and most of the ones she does have are completely dependent on your teammates to not mess it up.
Yeah see this is getting into the bit where Mercy can get solo value in a really really weird way for somebody who’s supposed to be the game’s dedicated support.
Can Mercy bait enemies into wild goose chases then use her ridiculous mobility to make them waste their time? Yes. Yes she absolutely can. In fact, that’s her best way of making an impact when everybody is bad.
However… does that make sense? Is that a good design? NO! It’s unintuitive and backwards that the game’s one and only dedicated Support is actually most independent and impactful via… not supporting her team and instead pulling aggro. At that point she’s not really a support anymore… she’s an evasion tank.
Uhhh no it isn’t because mercy’s boost only actually increases the chances of winning a fight CONDITIONED on the boosted is landing shots.
Her boost has no interactivty with anything otherwise.
And heck even “good dps” will miss and do so NOT in a deterministic manner. I.e. even if you know you have “good dps”, you objectively can’t “choose where to put [damage boost and] get [damage boost] value”, unless you’re telling me there’s a publicly available crystal ball to tell mercy players exactly with 100% certainty which shots out of all possibilities in the future will land to actually allow for that capability of “just place boost where you want to deterministically and directly get value directly from just placing it”.
She has enough value to get the highest ranks of the game. What more do you need?
Every action in the game that was used in a lost team fight doesn’t get value.
That said, the action at the time does have value if you increase the chances of winning a fight with your action then it has value.
Basically, take the same dps put him in 1000 fights with mercy and the same 1000 fights without. They will win more of the 1000 fights with mercy because mercy adds value.
The ability to get value in spite of my team. That’s what I need. Mercy used to have that ability. She should have that ability again.
Again, you moved the goalposts. Nobody is talking about “chances”. We’re talking about what actual VALUE you’re bringing to the team.
Arguing about “chances” in this context is like saying that by picking Widow against Pharah, you are automatically increasing your team’s chances to win. That argument DOES NOT WORK if the Widow gets zero value (does not hit her shots).
You only “increase chances” for your team if your ability is actually able to get value. If it doesn’t, you’re better off picking a different character. If you can’t land shots on a Pharah as Widow, you’re better off swapping to something else. If your teammates can’t land shots when you damage boost them, you’re better off swapping to something else.
I don’t get your point. As read it just seems you don’t understand probability. Since increasing a chance doesn’t require the outcome to actually happen. I think you getting lost somewhere.
As for nobody talking about that. I’m a person and I am also you are and to add to that if I want to make a counter point about chances because I think it’s a fairer way to consider value of a hero it’s absolutely in context of what everyone is talking about.
If you wanna call that moving a goal post because you don’t like I’m asking to consider a hero value in a fairer way. Go for it. Doesn’t counter point me at all or mean anything really outside you thought it did and it sounded good.
Yes, all.
Oh, I’m quite familiar with who I’m discussing with.
Well yeah. The developers can’t do that without breaking Mercy, because she still has Resurrect on E. 55 HPS was already starting to push it, even with her still relegated to a pocket-bot.
It’s more likely that I understand probability more than you do. In a game of skill, increasing the odds of an outcome means nothing if you do not then utilize the skill required to guarantee those odds. Using Blackjack as an example. If your hand is 11, then you have an 0% chance of busting over 21 if you get dealt another card, and thus the best move is to draw another. But if you don’t know that, and you choose to hold, then those odds meant nothing.
Looking at it mathematically, if any of the four points I raised are true, then any statistical advantage Damage Boost brings is multiplied by 0. So even if we way that Mercy damage boosting a Pharah brings the odds of winning the fight up to 60%, if Pharah is nowhere near the targets, does not shoot, misses her shots, or has her shots negated by the enemy, then all of those odds are multiplied by zero and thus BECOME zero.
It absolutely was not in context with what everyone else was talking about. It’s just another example of you moving the goalposts.
No, I’m calling it moving the goalposts because it is. You continuously try to introduce new, irrelevant arguments when your previous ones are debunked.
As I said far above, there’s not much point in throwing around suggestions right now because there’s never been a shortage of good proposals, and trying to get “the best rework” distracts from the goal of getting “a good rework”.
To roughly quote myself from one of the videos in the series, “I can provide dozens of ideas to modify Mercy’s kit, and I’ve done so before. That’s not the point. Mercy is not a difficult problem to solve. All it takes is for the developers to pull their heads out of their six long enough to try something.”
You don’t need to propose a solution to criticize something for having problems.
In order for this to be taken seriously, we would need to assume that the only distinction between Mercy and Zenyatta is balance. I don’t need to explain why that assumption is fallacious.
Comparing Mercy to other supports isn’t taking something out of context. It is the polar opposite.
Zenyatta missing isn’t up to his teammates. It is up to himself. That’s player agency.
If Mercy could aim the teammate’s gun for them, then she’d have more agency. But she can’t. She holds right click on a teammate and hopes they can make it worthwhile. Whether they make it worthwhile is not up to the Mercy.
If and only if the target affected by damage amplification makes it worthwhile.
If and only if the target affected by damage amplification makes it worthwhile… Oh wait, that’s you. You have control over how worthwhile that damage amplification is. Almost as if Zenyatta has more agency.
Look like I said call it moving the goal posts all you want. I’m not fussed if I’m moving the goal posts if that’s because I want to move it from out of context to in to a fair context.
As for your ramble about blackjack. Cool. Doesn’t change my opinion that you don’t understand chance and how increasing a chance is value.