But to be clear only some supports can do all. I only say that because the issue isn’t mercy has very good mobility, it’s Kiriko has good damage and mobility and Suzu. I assume people know this but I feel like listing strong support abilities diminishes the point.
I also don’t agree with this as long as there are drawbacks. A support with immortality isn’t inherently too broken, they just cant also have good damage, healing and mobility.
Illari is just a DPS hero with a support heroes kit and bigger bullet hitboxes. why. I’m ok with supports being like a tank, for example brig. Because she also has the drawbacks of a tank; limited range and lacks the high burst healing some other supports have. So why does illari get the best of both roles?
Heroes can cross role lines that’s fine, but they cant be better than more dedicated heroes in each role that doesn’t make sense.
I’d say supports don’t need super strong sustain abilities AND the support passive. Bap has soooo much effective Hp. You’d think he was solo healing based on those numbers but no he also has another healer to help him out who at almost all ranks will peel for their other support.
The idea that supports should be fine in 1v1s vs dps is honestly braindead.
DPS has one job. Do damage. If a support can heal themselves and deal damage fast enough to kill a dps the thete is no reason for dps… which is exactly where we are right now.
Its made worse by the fact some supports can 1v1 tanks.
If you’re getting your rear handed to you by an Ana as a Genji…you got bigger problems on your hands. Genji can deflect literally everything Ana can throw at him, so if Ana is your problem as a Genji player, either that Ana is a friggin God among B-Anana’s or you aren’t actually a Genji main like you want to be.
Either way it’s back to the drawing board for that Genji player.
If you don’t one shot an Ana as Genji you’re probably just gonna die. That’s not the Genji’s fault, it’s the fact that Ana has hard CC and takes zero aim to deal 60 damage WHILE HEALING HERSELF and then only has to hit him twice after that.
“Baiting” out cooldowns being the main way you are able to get value is not a good gameplay loop, nor is it an excuse for allowing overpowered abilities in the game.
Especially in the context of a flanker, you are losing the battle as a flanker if you engage and have to retreat even if the support has to use their abilities because when you retreat you are taken out of the fight almost entirely and you also have cooldowns before you can attempt to get any decent value again.
“Baiting” abilities can definitely have its value, but it is not always as valuable as people might think
No, I think they’re about equal in size for their projectiles. Difference being that Zen is extremely vulnerable and easy to kill while Kiriko is not. Zen cannot just TP away, nor can he immo himself. He also has really bad healing at only 30 HPS per target.
it’s starting to sound like a lot of you just don’t want supports to be able to duel at all. i admit bap and the like are strong right now.
but yall are making it sound like a dps should just be able to glance at a support and kill them. if an ana kills a genji by dumping her entire kit into him…good! it is not easy to sleep a genji!! she earned that kill and is down those abilities for supporting her team.
why are we complaining about that? should genji win that fight 10/10 times? how would that be fun for ana?
yes supports shouldn’t be outperforming dps, but they should not be free food either
It is relatively circumstantial, but I absolutely feel that baiting a high value ability for a low value ability is objectively a success.
I am not sure how you are envisioning a retreat, but I can often, for example, pressure an Ana so that she either darts me or anti’s me. This opens her up entirely and I can “retreat” into their backline to take space. The Ana is now aware I am behind their team and has fewer abilities to oppress my tank who is currently pushing. At that point, you can reengage early because your escape will be back by time she dies, she is very vulnerable, and I have assistance.
Obviously that is a favorable example and there are plenty where I might agree that just baiting an ability is not resulting in actual progress in the team fight. It depends on the situation, but I would say it is usually a good sign. Very rarely does it result in nothing.
I would MUCH rather have a DPS that is able to bait relevant cooldowns and escape while I am on tank than a DPS fishing for kills and not really doing anything while they wait. One of those games is going to be a lot easier than the other.
There’s two camps. One wants Supports nerfed into the ground because they don’t think it’s fair that a Support can outduel them. The other thinks that the top supports right now have too much going for them and should be nerfed.
Crowd A is much more vocal, but they’ll lose to a Brig as D.Va because they don’t know how to use their abilities correctly.
I think if supports were free kills it wouldn’t be any fun for the DPS either. Right now an Ana genji duel is 50/50. Imagine if the “DPS designed to kill support” did so at 90/10. How would it be fun for the genji? He doesn’t get a challenge, just a free kill.
In the case of bap illiari kiriko, yes, it’s somewhat broken but all the other sups are fine
They are not on equal footing. Supports have much better kit.
DPS basically has to pull off critical hits to win duels but then supports can also critical you kill you in a second or two. Otherwise their sustain just beat you.
DPS need better self-sustain, not team-heal no utility, just better self-sustain. DPS would be better in 1v1 vs supports but still far less valuable in a team environment.
Yeah, that’s what some people want. They see Support as the role that exists solely to enable the dps to make plays, and be the victims in their sick POTG where they pressed Q and got two kills.