The flawed opinion on handicapping

[Rezeak-2251]

Figured I’d update the post to make it all simpler!

What this post is responding to

Now one of the most popular topics in competitive overwatch forums

@Cuthbert-11649

Plea for democracy and regulatory action
Four years of debate and polling have proven with strong majority votes that players want transparent terms of use for Competitive Play, and non-

Basically, want to point of the flaws to his points in one place as the discussion has been spammed across the forum so it’s hard to track…

Algorithmic handicapping

Is any system that makes the game harder for players.
This would include every competitive shooter that has a ranked mode any, tournament, league.

In basic terms without Algorithmic handicapping, you cannot have a Rank mode. Simple as.

Cuthbert says it’s wrong and should be in no competitive online games yet it’s all of them.

This concludes he doesn’t understand the term and honestly at this point you could say his entire discussion is flawed.

Patents

Aren’t evidence. Everything he claims to happen could happen without them and therefore the only context they can give is that Overwatch has the potential to do some of the things that are claimed, unfortunately, the fact the game exists proves that.

MMR

Now, sure he could have an issue with MMR and the way it works. That’s 100% fine a lot of people do.

That said, nothing he says about it is relevant because it’s put into context of things he doesn’t understand and uses stuff out of context.

It would be my conclusion that he is projecting his issues with MMR onto other things because he can’t understand the basics of it.

Proof of taking thing out of context

@Cuthbert-11649

“The amount of MMR (and SR) you go up or down is not a matter of whether you won or lost…”

The dev post he was quoting actually says

“The amount of MMR (and SR) you go up or down isn’t simply a matter of whether you won or lost, and what was your predicted chance of winning.”

Changing a quote, in simple terms is lying and if you need to change a quote to prove your point by definition the point is wrong.

Data manipulation evidence

@Cuthbert-11649

For making this project not only possible, but imperative, I must thank the thousands of Overwatch players who have voted and posted in my threads on Blizzard user forums, proponents and opponents both. Without your participation and clear majority favor (over 85% supporting votes across 5 polls), I would have abandoned my argument long ago.

Worth mentioning for context.

@Cuthbert-11649

I want to check in with you players, to see if I should keep beating this drum.

The first post that disagrees with you has 26 likes vs the OP 18 meaning in this case you only being supported 40%.

The 85% you cite is out context data on closed polls with loaded questions which could be considered basic data manipulation.

@Cuthbert-11649

I don’t know what you mean by “loaded questions” or “data manipulation.” The subject of the polls was that “handicapping is wrong for competitive play,” and the poll options were simply ‘yay’ or ‘nay.’

Just to highlight how his doesn’t understand what a load question is and him providing the example of such loaded question “handicapping is wrong for competitive play” without context and what the handicap is (based of his flawed conculsion)
It’s a loaded question and use of such of a poll to justify his entire point is data manuiplation

Evidence of his ego

@Cuthbert-11649

I am vastly better than the majority of players I get on my teams, in every class and character. I want a random match and a fair chance prove my merit. And then mark my words, I will drag Blizzard’s precious “E-Sports professionals” down from their pedestals, together with other true competitors who are being suppressed by MMR.

If he’s that skilled and is knows how it all works he should be able to climb to top 500 like other players can with ease on multiple accounts or he’s wrong. There being no in between because he said himself he’s good and he claims to know how it works.

So yea he’s either a gold who’s better than every hero and every role in the games he plays that is being held down by the system… Or he’s just some guy that stopped playing looking for a scapgoat and has taken it too far.

Quote refences

Algo quotes

@Cuthbert-11649

I seek to outlaw the use of Bayesian skill scoring frameworks and algorithmic handicapping in online games.

Algorithmic handicapping is wrong is the title of his Youtube vid.

TF2 quote

@Cuthbert-11649

Team Fortress 2 players know each other from playing together on the same servers, and from a scoreboard which features full stats on each player. The handicapping of the match necessarily and completely depends on players’ knowledge of their skill relative to their peers. Overwatch players are always complete strangers to each other and never know any of their teammates’ and opponents’ performance stats (kills/deaths/assists), because the system is making the decision for them and segregating skilled/unskilled players based on the hidden performance stats.

[Billy-24799]

its rly not that deep bro just look up his name on overbuff and it explains everything

[Hero45owTTV-1360]

Yo please stop feeding the trolls. Us regulars are the one who pay the price .

[Flo-26348]

They are like those Youtubers and “influencers” who get paid to promote some s* merchandise so they have to put it in every one of their videos.

With this topic, imo, you are giving them more spotlight than they deserve.

The more they get ignored the less they will spam. The more people get hooked up on it whether to agree or disagree with them the more they will spam. I’ve personally made a mistake to engage with them.

No one in their right mind is going to spend so much time of their RL life in order to prove smth as being wrong or right in a video game.

[CALCULUS-11403]

Low key I never looked him up before. I remember him trying to tell me he was Diamond or something like that.

The uh… SR requirement for Diamond must have changed a lot in the time since he stopped playing

[Abdullah9000-2126]

@Billy-24799

its rly not that deep bro just look up his name on overbuff and it explains everything.

Just looked up his name. Why am I not surprised that he is very low ranked?

It seems like there is a pattern with people in the lower ranks constantly complaining about random factors to why they would be hardstruck there. So far the ones I remember just from their sheer amount of complaining are Cuthbert and Receipts

[ȐĔƆƐĨPŦŜ-1436]

@Rezeak-2251

Essentially, it’s not handicapping that he has the issue is it’s just skill based matchmaking. All matchmaking systems have a form of handicapping

Essentially you’re not understanding what handicapping means. It means to place someone at an unatural advantage or disadvantage, so the competition stays close. That is exactly what SBMM and MMR based systems do when they cherry pick teams instead of letting things play out naturally around a simple SR bracket. FIDE ELO is an example of matchmaking that doesn’t rig, doesn’t tune your next match around hidden performance tracking, and doesn’t handicap in competitive play.

@Rezeak-2251

If you ignore this normal handicapping that is in all matchmaking systems there is no intentional or additional handicapping and there is no evidence for it.

Why would anyone ignore handicapping? The MMR rigging has been confirmed by developer sources, and handicapped matches are a forced byproduct of fixing the contest around hidden criteria like skill differences.

@Rezeak-2251

Firstly, he says “I ran that game’s biggest and most respected clan at launch, The Last Gunslingers.” a quick google of “The last gunslingers” Team fortress 2 and you get almost nothing you get 1-2 links that relate to them, you find a steam group with 113 members and almost no mentions of how respected they are.

Who are you even referring to? It can’t be me (the OP of the post you linked) - because I never played in TF2 guilds and never wrote anything like that. Can you please link the quote where someone was talking about TF2 guilds? That guild and it’s nonsensical claims are news to me.

So you make an incoherent, accusatory wall of ramble about someone, don’t supply who they are, invent some false quote, and expect to be treated seriously?

[Flo-26348]

The thing about low ranks is, I know since I am one of them, is the majority of them like to think that high ranks players have been chosen by Jesus himself to be high ranked.

Like basically before this game even launched the Gods of the OW already have handpicked people to be T500 from the get go. There was no learning involved, no effort, nothing.

The OWL was picked like that as well. You, you and you. You all go into OWL everyone else is going to be Bronze for the rest of their OW lives.

I personally always shudder when I read comments like “oh yeah sure you Smurfing in low elos and getting out of them only shows how MMR rigging is a thing.”

It is like a complete blasphemy and smt that at this point on the forums should never be mentioned, like me getting better at a video game actually helps me to climb. Who would have thunk?

Also the “the more I win the harder enemies I get” kind of thinking is also blasphemy, because everyone knows that the more I win and get better the worse people I should be facing. If you give me better people then the System is sabotaging me.

I can bet my left kidney that people who say smth like that are the ones who still walk in a straight line and have only heard of high ground in some folk tale stories.

[Rezeak-2251]

Post not really about you. I reference you. Statements about you can be found in your post history some of it is in the link where I talk about patents.

Rest of it, stuff you said before, zero evidence.

[CALCULUS-11403]

That’s where you’re wrong kiddo (finger guns ).

EVERYTHING is about receipts. In fact, the entire Overwatch forums revolves around receipts.

The fact that you even considered posting on the forums without her permission is just purely unacceptable…

You should be ashamed of thy self.

[ȐĔƆƐĨPŦŜ-1436]

@Rezeak-2251

Statements about you can be found in your post history some of it is in the link where I talk about patents.

But who was talking about leading some TF2 guild? It certainly wasn’t me - and the way you’re wording your post makes it look like I’m saying that. Can you please quote it or edit it out?

@CALCULUS-11403

That’s where you’re wrong kiddo (finger guns ).

EVERYTHING is about receipts. In fact, the entire Overwatch forums revolves around receipts.

Thanks to you guys, I guess? Damage controlling every technical post about normal pdfs, MMR rigging, and patents for MMR rigging. Every argument for non-rigging points to someone climbing, which isn’t what rigging is about. I have yet to see one technical discussion, or scientific experiement that proves MMR isn’t used to rig matches for 50/50 outcome.

[Rezeak-2251]

No reference to you before that. Your mentioned second to last paragraph we’ll after that. Your getting confused cause I’m referencing my own post in your topic.

[ȐĔƆƐĨPŦŜ-1436]

Ok my bad then. So it’s you who was the TF2 guild master lead and it’s one of your own quotes? Because it’s such a large wall of text, I guess my reading comp was drifting away…like how is this gunslingers guild quote (who even said that and where?) even relevant to MMR rigging or ethics of handicapping matches.

[Rezeak-2251]

Explained in the post.

[ȐĔƆƐĨPŦŜ-1436]

@Rezeak-2251

Secondly, his character and while I’d rather discuss things as written and not talk about the writer but without evidence and him talking about himself and experience being the only thing left to back up his opinion I feel it has to be addressed.

Firstly, he says “I ran that game’s biggest and most respected clan at launch, The Last Gunslingers.” a quick google of “The last gunslingers” Team fortress 2 and you get almost nothing you get 1-2 links that relate to them, you find a steam group with 113 members and almost no mentions of how respected they are. So basically, he’s wrong about being the biggest and most respected, infact how would he even know that?

It’s the same thing applied to the entire discussion statements of fact without evidence or flawed evidence.

Ok, so you make this huge paragraph that goes on to character attack someone about something they did in TF2…and we don’t know where they said those things and who this person is…and then you somehow use that as analogical reasoning to build a case for “statements of fact without evidence or flawed evidence”.

Am I correct in my interpretation here?

[Rezeak-2251]

Post it refers to is quoted at start of post.

[ȐĔƆƐĨPŦŜ-1436]

I can’t find the word “gunslingers” in that post. So can you post a quote of the author mentioning these TF2 guild claims, which support your entire “character attack” argument?

[Rezeak-2251]

Rather not. Feel free to use Google or forums search function.

[ȐĔƆƐĨPŦŜ-1436]

It doesn’t exist though. I can’t find a single forum post (that isn’t this one) with the word “gunslingers”.

So the following:

@Rezeak-2251

Secondly, his character and while I’d rather discuss things as written and not talk about the writer but without evidence and him talking about himself and experience being the only thing left to back up his opinion I feel it has to be addressed.

We don’t know who the person even is?

@Rezeak-2251

Firstly, he says “I ran that game’s biggest and most respected clan at launch, The Last Gunslingers.” a quick google of “The last gunslingers” Team fortress 2 and you get almost nothing you get 1-2 links that relate to them, you find a steam group with 113 members and almost no mentions of how respected they are. So basically, he’s wrong about being the biggest and most respected, infact how would he even know that?

Again we don’t know who they are and where they said this.

@Rezeak-2251

It’s the same thing applied to the entire discussion statements of fact without evidence or flawed evidence.

And your argument rests on it? Kind of ironic you can’t provide evidence for your character attack.

[Rezeak-2251]

Post is quoted in topic. I just rather not look up things for you.