But wouldn’t balance be easier to obtain if the there was one variable that wasn’t constantly shifting? I mean as is now you can balance for 2/2/2 just so 3/3/0 can take its place tomorrow. After you balance for that 5/1/0 takes place after that. If 2/2/2 was the standard balance would be much easier as the comps would always be based around 2/2/2…
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There are literally zero people who use lfg at masters rank.
Sorry if it looks so, I am not irritated. Kinda tired, yes, but not irritated.
That is the main problem of your suggestion. You want to force something instead of something. Yes, 1/1/1 may open some new comps. But at the same time it completely removes other kind of comps.
Your suggestion does not solve the problem, it just shifts it with another one.
The core feature of the game is diversity granted by options. We should increase the amount of playable comps, not remove some in sake of addition of others. Any comp should be an option.
Yes, it would be easier to balance. And you know, it would be much easier to balance 6 heroes instead of 29. Much easier.
Easy is not always good. By simplifying system you make it easier to balance, but much less diverse and fun to play. The whole nature of Overwatch is that it is based on constant increase of complexity because of new elements added to the system. And of course it will be more difficult to balance the game with time. But this is natural way. There always will be problems.
Isn’t it more fun to counter comps through skill and actual counter picks instead of having the game do it for you? GOATS is very counterable and not just with a mirror comp. You can legitimately beat it. Let’s do that instead.
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Mobas have team formats and they seem to support many heroes in their rosters. Some balanced some sitting out till their time to shine. But I would gladly take 2/2/2 if it meant that they could balance heroes to be viable in a set stack than heroes like bastion/torb/symm that have never been part of a meta. Diversity that you get from a 2/2/2 is more heroes can be selected not that more comps are viable.
The hardest part of this game is that you are expected to play as a team and no one does. Given this communities affection to the attitude of “you can’t tell me what to do!” Simplification is not a bad thing either.
Now it feels like you’re taking what I’m saying out of context. I’m not talking about current existing heroes being added into the meta, I’m referring to brand new heroes that could be added and are heroes like Brigitte and Roadhog that try to walk the middle ground between roles. We’re going to get new heroes one way or another and they’ll continue trying to combat the current meta (whatever it is at that time) with a new hero. This forced meta situation isn’t even my idea. I made this post because I got angry at a Stylosa video talking about 2/2/2 because I find it to be just as asinine as you do. I’ve been working on data for something involving all the hero balancing of this game and why it’s so damn infuriating. I’m one of the last people that needs a lecture on hero balancing because I go get my own data for it. Granted you wouldn’t know that but you’re treating this discussion as if I’m not willing to accept your opinion here because I’m arguing for the possibility of this role system being a thing.
I’m not trying to force this on people. I’m trying to break down why 2/2/2 is a dumb idea, why a 1/1/1 is a better idea, and leave it to the community to make better. I understand that you disagree with how this would effect the game but you could also acknowledge some of the argument in return on why it would be good instead of entirely shutting it down. You could also just post your own suggestions. I want the feedback. That’s why I’m taking time to even respond to people here.
Well, I’m willing to be proven wrong.
But if stage 1 of OWL is 90% GOATs, that’s gonna be a really bad look.
And fixing it through balance doesn’t really seem possible, without ripping out huge chunks of how healers/tanks function.
Points for honesty.
I feel like that belongs in the OP though, unless it’s in there and I missed it. I skimmed.
Anyway, just wanted to let you know that although you’re not wrong that I’d like a 1,1,1 lock better than 2,2,2; I really still wouldn’t want either.
In mobas you mostly select lane, not a role. And majority of heroes can go on more than one lane.
In OW tank is a tank, DPS is DPS. Rein cannot take a role of damage dealer, McCree cannot tank.
The same was once said about Dive vs Dive meta. " You cannot solve this stale meta without gutting dive tanks and nerfing flankers into the ground!"
And then they released Briggite and problem was solved. Dive vs Dive ended and Dive comp became one of the many options, instead of the only option.
Goats can be countered by not Goats. But it is easier and more effective to counter it by another Goats on pro level.
How to fix it? Created another way to counter it which will be even more effective: implement a new hero, like a heavy damage flamethrower tank with low mobility for example, that will be great against Goats, but cannot fit into it.
1/1/1 wouldn’t fix the problem that the people asking for 2/2/2 role queue have. The problem is that it’s a dice roll of what “mains” you will get. Maybe you’ll have 1 support main and 5 dps mains, and the enemy will have 2/2/2 mains. With 1/1/1 you could still get 1 support, 1 tank, and 4 dps mains and the enemy 2/2/2.
It would make it slightly better, but the randomness is still there, and just like LFG, it would be a band aid on an bullet hole. People want to trust the game to give them what they need to be on the same level as opponents.
You want to counter GOATs with a “Not GOATs” comp that has to stand next to GOATs, at short range, for an extended period of time?
How is that type of Comp not going to get run over, unless it’s a triple healer comp, with 2 tanks and 1 DPS?
Which isn’t much of an improvement on “Not GOATs”.
What did you miss? That I was angry about a Stylosa vid or that I’m not saying this system has to exist?
Also I agree that neither 2/2/2 or 1/1/1 would be better if we could have more heroes viable at once.
That’s more of a problem with the queue system. That’s why they added LFG and why so many people still want role queue. I also want role queue. This isn’t about queuing up for a game though. This is about once you’re in the game and about team compositions. No matter who you end up with, you’ll be stuck in this system anyway if it’s implemented.
It is a matter of design and balance. Goats comp is a deathball of heroes clutching and receive constant AoE healing.
What if there would be a hero durable enough to survive jump of deathball? What if that hero would have a falmethrower that can deal a lot of AoE damage to grouped enemies and apply DoT damage on them that will effectively reduce HPS they receive? What if that hero would be able to spread oil slicks that slow enemies and can be ignited to create walls of fire to zone control, area denial and separation of enemy team?
It is just a theoretical example of one of many ways to design a hero that could be strong against goats.
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Did… Did you just describe Blaze’s build in HotS? I mean, I love Blaze and would totally play that if it were an Overwatch Hero to the point that I’d actually have a main for once… but… ok, I could see this if there was one teeny thing that made this entire thing work against tanks. It needs an anti-armor effect like Torb’s new ultimate.
The reason I say this is because I found out Symmetra’s new build was effectively supposed to counter DVa but her damn primary fire (the thing that can’t be defense matrixed away) gets it’s damage cut in half at all stages and I am livid they had the nerve to say she was meant to counter a tank!
But yeah, great idea with the fire and the flames. As long as it has an armor eating quality to counter the damage over time high tick rate/low damage type of effect, it’d work great.
Yep, it is basically a Blaze, but with DoT from any fire attacks.
Honestly, they can simply put the whole Blaze design into OW and it will work with some tweaks to make it fit into FPS mechanics.
I don’t thing that it should necessarily have something especially strong against armor, but I am sure it would be enough if his flame simply ignore armor and deals same damage to it as to regular health.
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Please check out this thread
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I’m not sure what you mean. Yes it’s a problem with the queue system in the sense that the game doesn’t ensure that everyone on your team can play what is necessary. Role queue is a queue system that does. At least 90%, for the ideas that the players offered until now. The only issue would be like main tank vs off-tank, main healer vs off-healer, but it’s a lot easier to learn other heroes in your main class than it is to have to play multiple roles, and maybe its even possible to sort that issue out.
I think if they bring 222 into the game they’ll probably have to buff some of the lower dps heroes like Mei. The meta will just shift and pickrates will shift for particular heroes
If it was just deathball that would be one thing.
But it’s a deathball almost exclusively equipped with weapons that bypass Matrix, or bypass Matrix and Shields.
It’s not an artificial system, it’s the next logical step forward after having gone from unlimited heroes to one hero limit. Being as they add more heroes into the game, most of all support and tanks, we start to see a lot of interactions that are nearly impossible to balance when you allow “unlimited” amounts of certain hero classes.
They can fine tune the balance in a forced 2-2-2.
Yeah, it stops players from selfishly jamming their +1 more DPS pick or one trick hero pick into games but that’s a small price to pay for better over all balance. It would even open the door for more hybrid heroes as there would not any issues with huge over lap.
Clearly someone on the launch team looked at Brigitte in her totally busted launch state was “Yes! This is greats, she is going to be so good for the game!” and then as we know the entire meta train wrecked into this goats mess where there are no DPS in games. They wiped out the most popular role and 1/3 of a team structure with ONE hero release.
It’s bound to happen again.
No we need the game to move to 2-2-2 the same way we moved from unlimited to 1 hero limit. It might not be clear right now, being players will just refuse to play goats or refuse to play zero DPS heroes etc. I think it will be a bit more clear if the balance team can’t get 3-3 under control and OWL S2 is a yawn fest like contenders is right now of almost all 3-3 meta.
You tune in, it looks 100% the same. Tune in again later, still looks 100% the same. It’s terrible.
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