Soloable Supports and Off Tank Stacking

I think it’s safe to say the half-baked 1-3-2 experiment isn’t close to replacing 2-2-2. Generally speaking tanks weren’t buffed enough and the power levels of off tanks were haphazardly spread around. The community has also hardly tested whether even Zarya would suffice to compete with a shield tank against the wide selection of ranged damage. Long story short this transient experiment is a distraction for players and developers alike. Rebalancing the game is something that needs to be taken seriously as opposed to being done in a hurried and superficial manner. Based on Jeff Kaplan’s statements this from the start has been a half-hearted effort.

There is another problem with 1-3-2 that can be expressed with the ice cream analogy from this write-up, which clearly wasn’t spontaneous:

That’s a great analogy.

Heiberg [ scrolling through his phone ]: Actually, the most popular flavor—it looks like it might be chocolate after all. Depends on the source.

Kaplan : Well, we know it’s not strawberry. Strawberry is the tank.

One, considering developer statements that tank was envisioned to be and was often played as a solo role from the start why was 2-2-2 implemented? The ice cream shop owners knew their customers didn’t like eating much strawberry ice cream yet they still decided to sell only as much chocolate and vanilla ice cream as they could sell strawberry ice cream. Two, no one knows that strawberry ice cream will forever be the least popular flavor and it’s common sense that if you’re eating ice cream every day for a long time you might decide to eat a different flavor for a while or to mix them up. There aren’t as many militant chocolate fundamentalists as myself irl and even I’m a little more open-minded in Overwatch.

This post is going to expand on the ideas presented here:

I have a dream that one day all the little boys and all the little girls playing Overwatch wouldn’t have flavors of ice cream shoved down their throats by the command economy and wouldn’t be forced to stand in long queues watching their peers zoom by only because their tastes are different. I have a dream that one day should they choose to eat strawberry there will be plenty of strawberry, should they choose to eat chocolate there will be a fair and balanced amount of chocolate, and should they choose to eat vanilla there will be vanilla. I would even have a return and exchange policy. I have a dream of a matchmaker that uses all compositions having a maximum of three of one role and a minimum of one of every role. I have a dream that after all the little boys and all the little girls have picked a hero within their preferred roles they would be allowed to pick heroes from other roles as long as they don’t overdo it. Amen. As I know I’m addressing those discriminated against with literacy tests I hope the ‘I Have an Ice Cream Dream’ analogy resonates on a more basic level. And if the little boys and the little girls mix too much of strawberry and vanilla there is a chocolate flavor laced with laxatives in the other thread to flush the problem.

One of the sticking points of 1-3-2 has been the high level of damage. Jeff Kaplan has stated that lowering damage and even changing health across the board is a counter-measure on the table. The idea here takes a different approach, doubling in utility as a way to include solo support compositions in addition to stronger main tanks than were seen in the 1-3-2 experiment. Before people predictably start crying, yes, solo support compositions will likely have a different dynamic or feel to them. Variety is the spice of life.

What we do is have an overpowered version of every support hero in the game. The initial idea was to have only a number of them be active at a time and selectable on a first come first serve basis but the idea has changed. Now every support hero is to have its overpowered version available and the main support designation is to be randomly assigned to a player who queued for the support role. A player designated as the main support automatically picks from the overpowered versions of support heroes, which are:

Basic

Mercy

  • Health increased by 50
  • Regeneration gains a base constant passive of 10 health per second, to which the existing 20 health per second after not taking damage for 1 second is added
  • Caduceus Staff healing increased by 20 health per second to 70 Hps
  • Guardian Angel maximum range increased by 10 meters to 40 meters
  • Guardian Angel cooldown reduced by 0.5 seconds to 1 second
  • Valkyrie healing increased by 90 Hps to 150 Hps, self-healing increased by 30 Hps to 50 Hps, chain healing max range increased by 10 meters to 20 meters, duration reduced by 7 seconds to 8 seconds

Aim dependent

Ana

  • Health increased by 50
  • Biotic Rifle healing lingers for an additional 75 health over 4 seconds if Ana crits, which is not stackable but refreshable
  • Biotic Grenade reduces enemy healing by 50% as opposed to blocking it
  • Biotic Grenade cooldown increased by 2 seconds to 12 seconds
  • Gains Steroid Injection on Weapon 2 with a 0.5 second cast time, a 5 second duration, and a 25 second cooldown - 50 Hps regeneration affected by Biotic Grenade, movement speed increased by 1 m/s to 6.5 m/s (~20%), 100% faster cooldown recovery, Biotic Rifle rate of fire quickened by 0.3 seconds to one shot per 0.5 seconds and reload time reduced by 0.5 seconds to 1 second
  • Ultimate changes - Ana gains Nano Shot rounds she chambers by pressing R starting with 1 at 0% ultimate charge and gaining a round every 20% of ultimate charge excluding 100% with a maximum of two unused Nano Shot rounds
  • Nano Boost is available at 100% ultimate charge after each available Nano Shot has been fired - every player who has received a Nano Shot is affected including Ana automatically, damage buff is reduced to 10% from 50%, healing is reduced by 150 to 100

Zenyatta

  • Shields increased by 50
  • Orb of Harmony healing increased by 10 Hps to 40 Hps
  • Orb of Harmony returns after 7 seconds of not having Line of Sight as opposed to 3
  • Gains a second Orb of Harmony assigned to E, Orb of Discord goes to Weapon 2 (his Secondary Fire volley remains)
  • Gains Mind of Buddha ability on key 3 and a 15 second cooldown which is a 2.5 second state of invulnerability along with a 1 m/s movement speed increase and immediate commencement of shield regeneration but Orb of Destruction and Orb of Discord become unavailable, can be cancelled
  • Orb of Destruction damage reduced by 8 to 40

Dive

Moira

  • Health increased by 50
  • Biotic Grasp Primary Fire maximum range increased by 10 meters to 25 meters
  • Biotic Grasp Secondary Fire damage reduced by 10 to 40 per second, self-healing increased by 20 to 40 per second
  • Fade maximum range increased by 25 meters to 40 meters, duration increased by 1.7 seconds to 2.5 seconds, vertical movement enabled by Jump for up and Crouch for down, can be cancelled
  • Base movement speed increased by 0.5 m/s to 6 m/s

Lucio

  • Health increased by 50
  • Crossfade healing increased by 14 per second to 30 per second for allies and by ~7.7 per second to 20 per second for self
  • Crossfade healing area of effect increased by 13 meters to 25 meters
  • Crossfade movement speed area of effect increased by 3 meters to 15 meters
  • Sonic Amplifier damage decreased by 2 per round to 18
  • Soundwave gains a second effect either toggled or simply activated by Weapon 2 where as opposed to knocking back enemies Lucio knocks himself in the opposite direction

Control

Brigitte

  • Inspire healing increased to 30 per second for allies and to 30 per second for self
  • Repair Pack cooldown reduced by 1 second to 5 seconds
  • Rally healing increased by 25 armor per 0.5 seconds to 40 armor per 0.5 seconds, up to 150 armor on self and allies as opposed to 100
  • Rally area of effect radius increased by 1.5 meters to 10 meters

Baptiste

  • Health increased by 50
  • Biotic Launcher Secondary Fire self heals, slows enemies by 0.5 m/s for 0.8 seconds
  • Regenerative Burst cooldown reduced by 3 seconds to 12 seconds
  • Amplification Matrix becomes Baptiste Cage - area of effect 20x20x20 meter cube, damage amplification and healing amplification removed, allies and self within the Cage receive 50% less damage regardless of the location of the damage source

Obviously the emphasis is on healing or preventing damage and survivability. Main tanks were addressed in the other post but off tanks were left in an entirely dependent role. While I do not believe main tanks can or should be substituted with off tanks in solo tank compositions I think off tank stacking can be bolstered to expand variety. Initially I thought maybe some sort of pronounced synergy could exist between off tanks but such a thing is hard to conceive of and adapt so we go with a coarser option. In the absence of a main tank the remaining tanks are of modified versions.

Roadhog

  • Take a Breather becomes O Lord He’s Coming - duration unlimited, cancellable, healing reduced by 150 to 150 per second, Roadhog swells to twice his normal size over the course of 4 seconds and stays at that size for the duration, deflates over the course of 4 seconds at maximum after the ability is ended

Zarya

  • Gains 0.15% as opposed to 0.2% energy per damage blocked by her barriers (maximum energy gain per barrier decreased from 40% to 30%)
  • Particle Cannon Primary Fire damage per second decreased by 0.2 to 0.55 damage per second for each percentage of energy (at 100% energy damage becomes 150 as opposed to 170 per second)
  • Particle Cannon Secondary Fire damage increased by .85% as opposed to 1% for each percentage of energy
  • Particle Barrier cooldown reduced by 2 seconds to 8 seconds
  • Projected Barrier gains a second charge

D.Va

  • Defense Matrix maximum duration increased by 2 seconds to 4 seconds

Obviously these changes are intended to increase the damage absorption capabilities of these heroes in the absence of a main tank. I haven’t figured out what to do with Hammond so I’ve just left him untouched.

Implementation

On the it making any sense side it could be conveyed that these altered versions of the heroes are still the same heroes but circumstances have motivated them to perform at a higher level - the main support feels a greater sense of responsibility for the performance of his or her team whereas the non-main tanks feel they have to make a greater contribution in the absence of a main tank.

I would be shocked if conditionally modified heroes are impossible to implement, but the conditions themselves warrant significant thought and discussion. The main support is relatively easy - one player who queued as support is chosen at random. Which version of the off tanks is supposed to apply is more complicated. Obviously when there is no main tank the changes should apply, but how is this to be decided? I don’t think one player should be making the decision. Instead, if anyone picks a main tank the default off tanks should apply.

The 5 second rule

Indecisiveness, messing around, exploitation, and being able to switch a set-up need to be addressed. Five seconds before the doors open the tank configuration should be set. If a main tank is present the off tanks are in their default states, if not, the changes apply and the main tank sub-role is unavailable.

Switching a tank configuration or a main support would be enabled at any time during the match if no tanks are present/tank players deselect heroes for five seconds or if the main support player deselects a hero or selects a hero from another role for five seconds. Afterward recompleting the composition (or reaching the maximum of three tanks) or the next player to pick a support does so changes the configuration or assignment. Obviously such changes require teamwork and agreement so there’s no need to worry about things constantly changing. Ultimate charges reset.

Why the complexity?

This is a fair question. The answer is achieving mutually exclusive goals. On the premise that a rigid composition to be played in perpetuity like 1-3-2 or 2-2-2 is unacceptable whether because of variety or playerbase mismatching it becomes clear that rebalancing the game around one composition creates problems in others, not to mention rebalancing for one composition may be unrealistic. Take 1-3-2. You can make solo tanks strong but you run into problems making them competitive. A Zarya and a Roadhog are unlikely to be competitive against a shield tank unless you make the shield weak and run into the same problem Zarya and Roadhog run into - heavy damage at range. Some call it sniper heaven although heroes like Soldier and McCree certainly benefit greatly. You dramatically nerf damage and/or increase health pools and Overwatch changes entirely into a long time to kill game. And wouldn’t a shield still be vital or made of paper? Shield tanks are more or less anchor tanks, the team protection they provide is hard to replace. They are generally essential and form an exclusive sub-role. On the other hand you buff tanks and allow free choice and monstrous triple tank compositions form. This easily anticipated problem occurred when back in the day the developers tried buffing Zarya and D.Va to somehow compete with Reinhardt. Instead, they just replaced other heroes.

Take 2-3-1 or 3-2-1. Such compositions require support heroes that can output a lot of healing while having much greater survivability. Supports can be buffed to such a state but then in multiple support compositions heroes may become undying and the game could be overwhelmingly based on support play.

You don’t do anything and you have the players of your most popular role sit in very long queues relative to match times while a bunch of numbskulls keep braying about more fun tank and support heroes turning strawberry into chocolate like some sort of ice cream Jesus Christs despite the already existing wide range of heroes, albeit lacking depth, and the high power levels that tank and support heroes have enjoyed in the past. I.e. the tank and support problem is likely neither one of lack of choice nor one likely to be addressed anytime soon. You’re also stuck with a rigid composition.

I always thought one place where complexity is particularly good and fun is in gaming. It’s kind of like reading detailed fantasy books such as the Lord of the Rings series, except you’re playing. I don’t understand how any sort of complexity added on top of a status quo is viewed with fear as opposed to as an opportunity. The average gamer is an unimaginative and unambitious sort of person who is highly contextual, having neither the audacity nor the aptitude to imagine something better. Recently some players have been suggesting 1-2-2 because they saw Seagull mention it on a stream. Streamers are basically talented average players, glorified members of their plat chats they presume to be much different from.

Mercy’s damage boost is now pointless. And her ult is just Transcendence with flight and a gun taped on.

Sleep dart -> self-nade -> Steroids -> another self nade just afterwards -> another sleep dart -> RIP every flanker ever.
Also, kit packing.

Cool! Now you can get an ability that messes with your muscle memory!

Unnecessary complication, difficult for people to figure out without going to the wiki, takes time and careful coordination to get good value (and an Ana telling everyone to stay in the back while she spams to build ult charge), destroys Ana’s role as the powerful single-target healer, and is practically necessary for a push because of the damage reduction and burst heal. Is that everything? I think that’s everything.

The only sane things to come out of this. And they aren’t that great, either.

This is the most awkwardly done rebind that I’ve ever seen. Just do it like Sym’s turrets FFS. Oldest one dies first.

RIP flankers (x2 combo)
Also, kit packing.

20 + 10 = 25?

Great, combined with the range buff she’s even more annoying, even harder to kill, and even less effective at actually killing things!

40/2.5 = 8 m/s. Not a giant range buff, just Wraith form with invisibility and flight. Also, gives Moira ridiculous mobility.

Change for the sake of change is progress, right?

Unnecessarily complicated AoEs.

Kit packing, Lucio already has great mobility, unnecessary complication.

Surprisingly, I don’t really have many issues with the Brig buffs if she has to be OP.

RIP flankers (x3)

It’s like Immortality Field, but it doesn’t actually counter too much!

O Lord He’s Coming Feeding His Brains Out While Bugging Through The Map Because The Hallways Aren’t Meant To Take Players That Large

Seriously, what made you think that 150 HPS with duration unlimited, without even being an ult, was a good idea? He just holds E until his hook is back to win 1v1s against pretty much anyone but Mei.

Change for the sake of change!

laughs in Nanoblade Genji

Nowhere near enough to make her viable as a solo tank, as Experimental Mode proves.

Adds complication for casual players, extra confusion, etc.

AARGH UNNECESSARY COMPLEXITY

Yes, but there are a lot of casual players in Overwatch. It’s all well and good for games where they have a fairly set playerbase who have an idea of what they’re getting into, but unnecessary complexity just thrown out upfront just drives people away from Overwatch because a lot of them are new to gaming in general.

But I am different. I am a Man of Culture, with Imagination and Intelligence to see a great Vision of Overwatch as it could be.

That whole passage is just dripping in ego.

The better Mercy is able to heal the more useful her damage boost may be. Had they not removed mass res she could have had a more distinctive ult. Nonetheless, considering chaining, it’s a unique ult.

This is exactly the point. Not just one flanker either.

LOL

It’s quite simple that your R has a charge at every 20% that you activate by pressing R and shoot through your gun. It’s a little thing called fun and it’s quite intuitive. Usage doesn’t take coordination but accuracy. Coordination could help. Ana is intended to be a high skill hero, and surprise, some people enjoy exactly this, a challenge with a reward. Not sure what delusional realm you’re in where her identity is being destroyed. She’s simply transformed into a soloable support. There is no such thing as her practically being necessary for a push as she has plenty of competition and not every push corresponds to an ultimate.

Assigning the second Orb of Harmony to a button ensures full control.

Again, that’s the point. You have an anti-fun policy on “kit packing” apparently. I couldn’t care less for it.

Source I’m looking at says 15.

h ttps://overwatch.gamepedia.com/Moira

The range buff doesn’t affect the Secondary Fire. Her being harder to kill and less effective at killing things is the intent.

Exactly the idea. It’s much better than Wraith form.

She is supposed to complement dive compositions as a main support.

Didn’t want to give him speed boost over such a large area.

His vertical mobility is slower.

Surprising indeed.

He is a control main support after all. In general the idea for these overpowered supports is that you either don’t focus them or you focus them really hard or bait them into using cooldowns. They are not supposed to be easily killable. Widowmaker has also been nerfed in the other thread as there really is no reason for her to be as dominant as she is.

It’s like Ana’s new ult if she hit all her Nano Shots but without a damage boost and an initial heal and inside a 20-meter cube.

He would be a damage sponge. Not as good as a barrier but considerable. The damage reduction that comes with the ability reduces the ult battery effect. There is obviously CC that interrupts him but he also has Zarya and/or D.Va protecting him.

Erm, change that is basically the same as what the developers just did in the 1-3-2 experiment. Reducing her energy per shield maximum and damage somewhat.

…Ok.

It was explicitly stated these changes weren’t supposed to make these tanks into solo tanks. In fact, it’s in the title of the thread.

The main support player will be marked. Your toxicity and confusion arguments are undermined by the success of other competitive games where toxicity and impenetrable confusion far exceed what is encountered in Overwatch.

Those games had their starts and intermediate stages. You misinterpret gamers. Casuals play even the demanding games, in droves. In comparison to Overwatch Dota 2 and League of Legends are much more complex. One of the reasons I don’t play them is because of the high complexity barrier to entry, yet their success and popularity is enormous. You also clearly can’t tell what complexity is necessary and what complexity is unnecessary.

:wink:

Uh, yes they can. I’ve done it many freaking times where we both beat two shield tanks. It basically requires both off tanks to be VERY good at them. But it’s do-able. Same with Sym and Zarya, with double shields. All I do there. Is always focus down the shields with that Sym. Be with that Sym and pay attention to the other tank. I’ve done it with DVA and Zarya. I’ve done it with everything. But people don’t want to do it. Because they’re scared or it’s just harder.

All these nerfs for a 2 second reduction on her self bubble and second charge for teammate, no thanks. Anything that reduces her damage output for shields is worthless in my view. You reduce damage, other than for fixing bugs and tick changes. You increase beam range, or you increase ultimate damage as compensation, not bubbles. Her HP and hitbox size doesn’t make this useful to the Zarya. It’s only useful to that extra person.

Zarya is very powerful at breaking shields. Which people love to ignore. Zarya at 190 DPS when her tick bug was fixed. Was actually damn good at getting rid of the old Sigma Orisa shields. But everyone whined that beams where too good. Oh, having 1400 hours on Zarya, finally got rewarded. The Genji’s started crying. So Sym and Zarya’s DPS went in the clouds. Lowering her DPS makes this harder. While the other tank is harassing that tank. I will blow out their shield. So when they get ready to use it (especially stupid Sigma’s), it’s gone, they die and we move in.

Winning games in the experimental mode is different from competitive. I think the Zarya and Roadhog compositions would get abused by ranged damage and will be niche at best, if that. Symmetra’s teleporter won’t have any protection either. I also didn’t think barriers were buffed enough, except maybe Orisa’s.

Zarya’s shield energy generation is nerfed because she gets an extra one and a personal cooldown reduction. Her damage is nerfed less than the developers nerfed it because a charged Zarya is a full-blown DPS if not superior to one. I could have nerfed the energy generation further and/or the energy decay but decided to keep full charge more attainable.

These changes only apply in the absence of a main tank and are meant to improve the tanking capability of the off tanks.

It seems you were referring to competitive in your experience against double shield no less. I don’t know what has been working for you but seemingly at every level the standard has been running at least one shield tank or dive. I extremely rarely see a Roadhog and a Zarya being run together as tanks and I’m not sure I’ve experienced a game where the Roadhog Zarya team has won running the combo throughout. It’s an extremely sub-par combination of tanks. I was also referring to the 1-3-2 experiment and composition where an attempt is made to equalize Roadhog and Zarya with shield tanks.

Alternatively the focus can remain on the main tanks and the main supports, keeping things simpler. Off tanks could continue to be dependent on a main tank.

Alternatively things can always be simpler to achieve less. It’s a trade-off. 2-2-2 role queue is the simplest but it blows up wait times and reduces diversity. 1-3-2 is hard to imagine succeeding. I think a lot of people just aren’t playing the experimental mode very seriously and the matchmaker is very loose. There are going to be major issues with tank variety and/or extremely controversial gameplay unless the game is changed fundamentally. Of course, it’s also a locked role composition.

It depends on what is found tolerable and the level of ambition.