So what WAS the problem with hide and rez?

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

@DvaSlaysEU-2809

Between 0:39 and 2:12 in that video, we are given two reasons for the rework which come down to “hide and rez” and “it wasn’t fun to play against”. Let’s start with the “hide and rez” assertion.

There are two ways to interpret what Jeff Kaplan said in that video regarding “hide and rez”. One way is that he is suggesting that Mercy players were routinely hiding as soon as they had their ultimate fully charged, which he disliked. The other interpretation is that Jeff didn’t want a main healer to “stop healing for some period of time”. Both interpretations are poorly thought out, and that lack of thoroughness has led to both concepts reappearing through the successive patches to Mercy following the rework.

Addressing the first one… Partially because I am feeling a little bit lazy at this time, partially because I stated it beautifully back on August 12th, 2017, I am going to quote myself from the old forums when I discussed “hide and rez”:

“It’s just hide and rez.”
This quote illustrates that the person saying it has no idea what they are talking about. No, it’s not an oversimplification, it’s just plain wrong.

“Hide and rez” is a great strategy… assuming your goal is to get wiped after the resurrection. Hiding turns the fight into a 5v6 with a main healer down. Any competent team would be able to walk through your team without expending ultimates, except to counter any ultimates expended by your team. The enemy team already has the positioning advantage and the first shot after the resurrection. “Hide and rez” would also give them the advantage of more ultimate abilities. Doing so sets your team up for failure.

A good Mercy sustains her team until they can no longer be sustained, or until she can no longer do so safely. By doing this, she allows the team to bait more ultimates before dying, giving your team the ultimate ability advantage after the resurrection.

A team playing against a hiding Mercy would have a significantly easier time dealing with the opposing team, as Mercy is putting her own team at a disadvantage. It wouldn’t even come down to being aware enough to consciously notice the 5v6 (although most players should be able to recognize a 5v6 when they see one), but a matter of knowing how much force the team needs to apply to overcome a given resistance; if the enemy is crumbling, don’t expend limited resources to push a structure that will fall on its own.

Because the opposing team is already at a numbers disadvantage in the initial fight, pushing into them without using any ultimates, except to counter ultimates expended by the enemy, will be sufficient for eliminating the opposition. This further leads to more loaded ultimates, as killing 4-5 enemies in a 2-2-2 composition is roughly equivalent to 1500 charge in HP. That is also excluding additional charge gained through allied healing and allied damage through enemy healing. Combine this with the absence of a need to expend ultimates, and the team with the hiding Mercy is revived looking down the barrel of an incredibly large gun, has no time to draw their own, and is in a poor position to capitalize on it even if they did have the time to draw their own.

As a result, hiding prematurely was detrimental to the team’s chances of winning the fight in the long term, even if it was riskier in the short term. It was a misuse of an ultimate.

To add some perspective to this, using “hide and rez” as a reason to remove Resurrect as an ultimate is about the same as using the fact that some Pharah players Barrage themselves on occasion as a reason to remove Rocket Barrage.

By this interpretation of Jeff Kaplan’s words, Blizzard’s intent was to prevent Mercy from leaving the fight, keeping her engaged. Rather than giving more reason to stay in the fight through modifications to Resurrect as an ultimate and the introduction of a decent E ability, the balance team decided to remove Resurrect as an ultimate entirely, and here we are.

Did someone say Valkyrie?

If the intention was to keep Mercy in the fight, why was her ultimate, which punished hiding prematurely and rewarded active play, replaced with an ultimate that rewards staying as far from the battle as possible?

According to this interpretation of Jeff’s words, the developers’ statement is, “We didn’t like how some Mercy players would leave the fight before using their ultimate…”. This statement is then finished by the patch history with, “…so we replaced the previous ultimate with one that is best utilized by leaving the fight”.

Let’s examine the second interpretation.

“We think it’s wrong to tell a main-healing character to go off and hide somewhere and stop healing for some period of time.”

1:32 - 1:42 of that same developer update.

The bold section is the one I am focusing on. Let’s pretend that the first interpretation is incorrect, and assume that Jeff Kaplan doesn’t want a hero to stop doing their main job for any period of time. In this case, the assertion may have some merit to it, as there was often a 3-5 second break in healing before Resurrections. This happened for two reasons, both of which came down to practicality:

60 health/second will not save the team from the incoming enemy ultimates.
Mercy’s healing/amplification beams are obvious and will lead the enemy straight towards her.
The would often result in the Mercy player staying further back or taking cover, possibly substituting healing/amplifying with whatever damage they could deal with their pistol. She would then use Resurrect and finish off or severely weaken a target they shot at before the Resurrection. In these scenarios, there is a short duration in which not doing Mercy’s primary job was the best way to use her.

That’s how it looks in a vacuum.

Look beyond just Mercy, and most heroes often perform very similar maneuvers to reach the same goal. Some examples of this are Rocket Barrage and Death Blossom, in which the player stops shooting at the enemy (their primary job) to reposition, obscure their position, and gain the advantage of surprise when they use their ultimate. This then begs the question: Why weren’t these ultimates changed for the same reason Mercy’s was changed?

The stupidity doesn’t stop there. We once again have a statement that identifies a perceived problem and proceeds to contradict itself through the actions of the developers:

Developers: “We didn’t like how Mercy would stop healing for a short duration before using Resurrect…”

Patch notes: “…so we removed Mercy’s ability to heal for an additional 1.75 seconds leading up to Resurrect’s activation.”

If the developers wanted Mercy players to heal more leading up to a Resurrection, why did they make it physically impossible for her to do so?

One interpretation of this argument brings us an assertion built on the ineffective use of an ultimate as a reason to change the ability; an assertion that appears to have been said once and then disregarded with the following patches. The other interpretation yields an assertion that is a double-standard that has also been disregarded in the following patches.

Let’s look at the second provided reason for the rework.
“…it’s pretty disheartening to have Mercy just erase that moment with a full-team rez.”

Yeah, I get that it can be disheartening to have a near team wipe negated, but do you know what else sucks? Getting wiped.

That’s how PvP games work; if one side is feeling pretty good, chances are that the other side is feeling pretty bad. Removing any one ability because “it was disheartening to play against” is as illogical as removing any or every ability because “it was disheartening to play against”.

If it is not a legitimate balance concern, meaning it is not oppressively powerful (which Mercy and Resurrect were not), then how it feels to play against is irrelevant, as that is treading into territory that is clearly a double standard.

How do you react when your team gets wiped by a Dragonblade? Earthshatter? Tactical Visor? Death Blossom? Rocket Barrage? Rip-Tire? Self-Destruct? Graviton Surge?

Do you squeal with joy? Do you feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Do you attain a sense of accomplishment?

No. For all of these scenarios, you likely feel disappointed, or possibly even angry at yourself or your team for how the fight went. The same emotions are felt by the attacking team when support ultimates are used to negate these same plays; Resurrect was no exception to this pool of ultimates, nor was it exceptionally potent in arising these emotions.

If it is fine for Resurrect to be removed as an ultimate because of this reason, what reason is there to rationalize the existence of any other impactful ultimate? Those are also disheartening to play against.

Read this and I’ll let you figure out why the reasons behind her rework were horrible.

[JuicyPig-2328]

im not asking what where the problems with invulnerable rez. im asking:

why was hide and rez the reason for a whoooole rework?

you guys cant seem to decide whether it was OP, or it was a garbage strategy.

[KazTehOne-1516]

Blizzard had a knack for giving into people who complained around that time. It’s the same reason Ana’s damage got destroyed.

[Tylerr-11113]

While I have no evidence of this the hide and rez mainly lead to lower rank mercys doing a strategy of not healing specific teammates, not using the ult for 1-2 people even if it would’ve won the fight, and only waiting to use it just to get POTG which if you’re plat-diamond-or even gold DPS and Tanks would either have to accept their mercy won’t heal them, won’t rez them, or don’t understand what a powerboost is. Not to mention before the rework Mercy players (according to EeveeA “Were not treated like humans, but treated like rez machines” which he was around masters so lower ranks were probably much more aggressive to inexperienced mercy mains

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

and then got reverted…

[KazTehOne-1516]

Honestly, I don’t care enough to read it. I’m one of the people who thinks mass ress could have been balanced and didn’t need a rework.

You’re @ing the void right now.

[Absql-1290]

This is true, I would like to point out that Blizzard has fixed the problem behind the sr exploit only after they reworked Mercy.

[TioMegamanX-1251]

Precisely, at the beginning mass rez was a little easier to counter and usually ended up as a trade since Mercy would probably die if she resurrected in the open, but then players kept complaining how she couldn’t move while rezzing, couldn’t rez without LoS, etc.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

O. My bad lol

[KazTehOne-1516]

70 =/= 80.

Only partially reverted, now she doesn’t have that padding damage in case the flanker gets help

[Tylerr-11113]

That is also true, also I’d like to point out most mercys who would just heal are either gone or nonexistent now sooo I guessed it fixed that?

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Get three consecutive shots and the person is dead unless they are a tank and or have more than 210 HP. The only bad thing is that it gets blocked by barriers but that’s left for another topic.

[KazTehOne-1516]

Get three consecutive shots and the person is dead unless they are a tank and or have more than 210 HP.

You have no idea what padding damage is do you. Stop @ me already you’re actually just looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Okey dad. Just thought you were another person claiming “Hide n Res” was a viable strategy. That was a mistake on my part.

[Hangman-11874]

Hide and rez was the reason behind her rework because it took no skill to do and had I reward for doin it. Which is why there were so many Mercy mains with low winrates because the game thought they were doing really well when in reality they weren’t. Although a lot of Mercy mains say her rework is the devs biggest failure but bastion is still here

[ASkeleton-21209]

No it’s more like ‘easy to use, difficult to counter reset buttons are a terrible idea and have no place in an FPS.’
Mass Resurrect was a colossal mistake, if it wasn’t for that ability we would have never seen hide & rez Mercy and this disastrous rework would have never happened.
Mercy’s ultimate should have been a fast building single target resurrect from the start.

[Tylerr-11113]

That makes sense and can explain the entire rework if it was mainly lower ranks complaining since OW seems to listen more to them more then anyone else

[DvaSlaysEU-2809]

Hide and rez was the reason behind her rework

and the fact that it was disheartening lmao. The reasons behind her rework were a joke.

[JuicyPig-2328]

Not to mention before the rework Mercy players (according to EeveeA “Were not treated like humans, but treated like rez machines” which he was around masters so lower ranks were probably much more aggressive to inexperienced mercy mains

this is the first remotely useful answer ive gotten in this thread. toxicity of mercys teammates because she doesnt use the strategy they want, its the only thing that the rework actually improved.
i still get the occasional “mercy rez!!” but its very rare.
i remember the times where everyone yelled REZ REZ REZ whenever a single person died.

but i still dont think the total rework was needed to solve that problem either…

and yes i acknowledge all the “bad strategy, SR abuse” thing, but the SR abuse got fixed later, and the bad strategy thing is really not a reason. because you can have bad strategies with every hero. you can play sombra and be invisible forever now. good strategy? no. but its up to the player.

[HappyLandAdv-1449]

Mercy has been through a lot of changes but Hide and Rez when she could bring 5 ppl back to life AND had invulnerability during it was when she was at her most powerful and they started to drastically change her. That’s when we started getting the 1 rez ult and then valk.

Basically Hide n Rez had little to absolute zero counterplay. It wasn’t something you did every team fight. It’s something you did to win the LAST team fight and the game in a super cheap fashion. You can’t just hold ults for when Mercy eventually comes in cuz if your enemy team is SMART they will hyper focus you until you die even if it costs them their life in the process because who cares? They’re gonna come back with rez anyways so as long as they killed the enemy with the super important ult, they did their job and essentially won the match now that said ult is out of the picture. Ppl would try to hold any kind of ult to prevent hide n rez never worked out that well. Enemy team would just hyper focus the zarya with ult or the genji with ult or the mei with ult. Literally anything that was considered a threat to their hiding Mercy was hunted down and destroyed.

But hey you say, why try to hold an ult for Mercy? Why not just have a flanker go after her while she’s hiding? Well…typically she hid in a spot super well guarded by her team. You almost always had to pass 3-5 ppl just to even get near her it’s not like you know exactly where she is unless Widow has ult so the chances of you running into the enemy before you can even get near mercy were ridiculously high. It was pretty much impossible for anyone who wasn’t Genji or Tracer and Sombra; and believe me I tried SEVERAL times to find the hiding Mercy as Winston. Didn’t work out so well. I only managed to catch her like twice. Kinda hard to sneak around as a giant gorilla looking for a hiding healer.

tl;dr the strat was an instant win and had little to zero counterplay. Now that doomfists exists and can destroy mercy in the blink of an eye it has ONE solid counter play but that revolves around someone on your team not only knowing how to play doomfist but also being good at him. Personally I think doomfist is a little op anyways I understand he takes a lot of skill and practice to do well with but his E ability just setups free kills in an unfair way similiar to pre-nerfed hog only this time you can’t even say they deserved the kill combo because they were “out of position” since doomfist can be nearly anywhere and is the one who puts them IN the position to be combo killed with E. They need to reduce the impact of it imo. Not fair and it’s literally just hog hook 1 shot but with punching.